Valyza1 Wrote:(May 10, 2017 at 4:50 pm)Luckie Wrote: You uhhh. You missed my point entirely. I'm talking about, say, still born babies. Or aborted babies. Or babies god commanded have their heads crashed upon the rocks in the Old Testament. I also put in an example of the Eskimo. Someone who would never hear the "good news" or be able to accept Christ's supposed offering. What happens to their free will if they auto go to heaven? Or hell, for that matter?
I have no idea. I have no idea what happens to anyone's Free Will once they die. I don't see what Free Will has to do with someone being religious or not, much less if they ever had a chance to be religious.
Are you just F#*/ING with me? Please let me know now, as I don't really want to waste my breath on someone who isn't serious.
Assuming you can't understand what I'm talking about, or what I'm saying.. I'll break it down for you.
God creates man.
God creates heaven, and hell.
Man must choose Christ and go to heaven, or be sent to hell.
For those unable to get the choice in life , like the Eskimo analogy, then they go to heaven by fiat.
They didn't choose Jesus or to reject him, they just get a free ticket to heaven.
For those humans (like babies) who die before they can make such an eternal choice--they too get a free ticket to heaven.
Neither scenarios offered up any situational free will. They just end up in heaven.
Suppose that that happened to you. Suppose that before you were able to reach year 1, you died.
When you got to heaven, you find out that you're there but your mom? Well she just couldn't handle your loss, she committed suicide and went to hell. God says dont worry about it, happens all the time, OH WELL.
Would you not have any pity in your heart whatsoever for your mum, who fed you from her breast, and loved you so much she couldn't live without you? Would you not beg god to change his mind about tormenting her soul for an eternity? When he says no.. do you really think you'd be okay with that answer?
When you found out hell was eternal torment of the higest order, and that God created it knowing people like your mom would end up there.. wouldn't you be a little miffed about the whole thing when you find out this whole situation was set up by God so he could have a minority of all his creation choose him , but you didn't even get that choice so [quote what's the point?
My point is that free will being gods reasoning for the current state of creation, is not a valid argument.
Quote:I didn't respond to your anecdote about going to heaven because I didn't and still don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.
Do you understand now? Or, as I suspect, are you just playing mental gymnastics in order to avoid thinking too much about the invalidity of Free Will as a causation for the horrific. Conditions innocent humans are subjected to on this earth and how utterly ubsurd it is to believe that it's allowed to occur by an omnipotent, omniscient being who simply wants to give you free will to choose to be his buddy?
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.