Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah it sounds like you're a compatabilist.

Of course comptabilist free will exists. But EVERYONE believes in that. NO ONE questions that.

However most people ALSO believe in incompatabilist free will on top of that... even though it's impossible.

That's the point. What most people believe in is false.

If the compatabilists are going to step in they should point out that the free will most people believe in is wrong. AND tell they don't need that kind of free will. Like Dan Dennett does.

But the first step is often missed. Comptabilists define what free will is... which is a kind EVERYONE believes in but they fail to point out the incompatabilist kind is impossible and.... if they were to point that out successfully they would shatter a lot of people's inner worlds.... their life would suddenly make no sense to them.

UNTIL they then also thoroughly convince people that Compatabilist free will is sufficent. And it is.

I mean... it is sufficent in the sense that it's all anyone ever has anyway. But I certainly felt more motivated when I believed in the impossible kind when I was much younger.

It is rather shattering to realize that you're a slave to your motives. And all compatabilsm does is say "Hey there's a difference between voluntary action and involuntary action and it's useful to hold people responsible AS IF they have free will!" that's literally how vacuous the compatabilist definition is.

No one questions the... for instance... legal definition of free will. That doing something voluntarily or 'of one's own free will' is something that any sane mature adult has....

...that's not the point. The point is most people also believe they are not slaves to their motives and that any given point in time they could have chosen otherwise. They could not. They were always going to do it... or indeterminism is true. Either way... THEY did not determine it.... their brain controls them.... they don't control their brain. Meaning that their mind... the conscious part of their brain... is ultimately controlled by the brain as a whole -- or the relevant unconscious parts.

And furthermore the brain itself is ultimately influenced by external factors as well. It's all prior causes prior causes prior causes or quantum randomness. Either way... no free will that most people believe in.

If you do intentionally do X at time T you could literally NOT have intentionally done Y at time T of your own free will. The compatabilist just says "Oh but you did it intentionally so that's free will". It's super vacuous.

Comptabilism is looking at the lack of free will and at the fact we all behave as if we have it anyway and just labelling that free will. It's literally looking at WILL... and calling it free will. And then the compatbailists are like "Fuck... where does the free part come in? Oh right we'll just say that whether an action is voluntarily or not determines if the will is free."

Sam Harris is very correct when he says it resembles theology. It's pathetic word games. It's as bad as trying to talk God into existence.

[Valyza1]

What is "incompatiblist Free Will "?

[Edwardo Piet]

So basically, what you are calling Free Will is the complete absence of Determinism, yes?  If that's the case, then I agree with you.  Free Will, by that definition, does not exist, because determinism does exist.  

No. I'm not saying that free will is the absence of determinism. I'm saying that the kind of free will that is incompatible with determinism is logically impossible and logically incoherent.

And I'm saying that the kind of free will that is compatible with determinism is so trivially true that it's not worthy to even be a part of the free will discussion. Compatabilism is an embarassment.

A compatabilist joining the free will debate is like a dude running up to a bunch of inventors and scientists trying to create a time machine and saying "Hey guys! I've solved it! Time is space-time so we already travel through time when we travel through space.... you're time travelling now just by walking up to me to punch me in the face for side-stepping the problem! Yay!.... wait..."

---

What is "incompatiblist Free Will "?

The opposite of compatabilist free will.

[WinterHold]

You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

We are described as "slaves" in the Quran:

Sura 2, Page 28, The Quran:
( 186 )   And when My slaves ask you concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

Furthermore; this slavery is even written in our own D.N.A ; nobody can escape the order of God being written in our own cells; how we should look like and how we should suffer. Our basic destiny is there; only if somebody knew how to read it.

Sura 32, Page 415, The Quran:
( 5 )   He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
( 6 )   That is the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,
( 7 )   Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
( 8 )   Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
( 9 )   Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

We are bound to our own realities; bound to our genes and bound to our humanity. Slaves.
When God is in the equation; what does "Free" actually mean? humans took their free will in this life; and it just showed up its resultant face: utter corruption.

We even cracked the Ozone layer.

Make a simple analysis to find out that humans literally used everything in their disposal to demolish earth. Earth is crying due to the drilling for oil and the voices of explosions. Freedom meant utter consumption of materials and resources, while watching our brothers and sisters die from hunger.

Admitting slavery to God doesn't mean to be servants of God; he doesn't need a butler. He doesn't need a chef. He is not a statue in a cave waiting to get washed 30 times a day. Admitting slavery to him is the real freedom, admitting that we need food and rain, need protection, need peace. That's real freedom.

[Edwardo Piet]

Nah... that's not real freedom: that's real submission to an imaginary friend, dude.

[Pat Mustard]

There is a fly, Chrysomya bezziana, which propogates by implanting its eggs in open wounds or mucous areas of warm blooded animals and the resulting larvae bury down into the flesh under the wound, hence its common name the old world screwworm fly (there is an unrelated fly in the Americas which does the same). In Indonesia there was a case of a nine year old boy whose ear was infested with the larvae, after pulling out ten or more from the ear cavity doctors noticed his eye was reddened and realised there was another colony of larvae sfter burying themselves inside that poor boy's eye.

On a more personal note my mother's older brother was by all accounts a brilliant man able to make thousands on shares in the fifties, a time when a tbousand pounds would keep a family well off for a year or more, and an absolute fount of knowledge, but I only ever knew him as a drooling madman stuck in an insane asylum because with the brilliance came paranoid schizophrenia.

How many Rembrandts, Mozarts, Einsteins, Shakespeares and other geniuses died not knowing their gifts because they lived in a world where life was nasty, brutish and shorts? Probably millions. How much better would the world be if they could have discovered them? Immesurably.

To quote my favorite author, Terry Pratchett:

One day I was a young boy...when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. Even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued... As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."
— Lord Vetinari, Unseen Academicals

It makes me angry when people tell me about "gods perfect plan", because it shows their wilful blindness to the world, their self imposed inability to see its triumphs and tragedies, and to look at what they have and what they can do to make it a better world. This is likely the only place we will ever have, and we could possibly make it a paradise (and definitely could make it much better), yet too many are pissing that chance up against a wall because of an imaginary next life to come.

To quote another favourite author, Alfred Bester, from the climax of The Stars My Destination

You pigs, you. You rut like pigs, is all. You got the most in you, and you use the least. You hear me, you? Got a million in you and spend pennies. Got a genius in you and think crazies. Got a heart in you and feel empties. All a you. Every you...'[...]Take a war to make you spend. Take a jam to make you think. Take a challenge to make you great. Rest of the time you sit around lazy, you. Pigs, you! All right, God damn you! I challenge you, me. Die or live and be great. Blow yourselves to Christ gone or come and find me, Gully Foyle, and I make you men. I make you great. I give you the stars

[Valyza1]

So basically, what you are calling Free Will is the complete absence of Determinism, yes?  If that's the case, then I agree with you.  Free Will, by that definition, does not exist, because determinism does exist.  

No. I'm not saying that free will is the absence of determinism. I'm saying that the kind of free will that is incompatible with determinism is logically impossible and logically incoherent.

And I'm saying that the kind of free will that is compatible with determinism is so trivially true that it's not worthy to even be a part of the free will discussion. Compatabilism is an embarassment.

A compatabilist joining the free will debate is like a dude running up to a bunch of inventors and scientists trying to create a time machine and saying "Hey guys! I've solved it! Time is space-time so we already travel through time when we travel through space.... you're time travelling now just by walking up to me to punch me in the face for side-stepping the problem! Yay!.... wait..."

---

What is "incompatiblist Free Will "?

The opposite of compatabilist free will.

All I ever thought I was talking about when discussing Free Will is the ability to pursue whatever it is that we will to pursue. It's about as simple as that. It doesn't mean we will always attain the object of our pursuit nor that the will itself to pursue is undetermined, just that we are free to engage in the pursuit no matter what hindrances come about. The sense of freedom is neither true nor false, it's just a sense of freedom. It is the constant opportunity to synchronize our desires to our reality. If only absolute freedom can be considered free, then there is no freedom at all. Even God would not be considered free because He is constrained by His own will.

[Aroura]

You are still just explaining how he sees it, not how that allows you to have choice.  We have already all agreed he sees it all for the sake of this argument.  How or where does not matter.  Saying that he sees the result of our choices does not explain how that makes those choices "Free".

(I forgot to address your example.  Yes, if I see you pick pepperoni pizza, that shows I know what you will do.  That does not demonstrate that you had the FREE CHOICE to choose cheese!  Doing a thing and/or knowing someone will do a thing in no way demonstrates that they had the free will to chose to do the other thing, and actually tacitly demonstrates the opposite.)

Hm? I'm not sure I follow. The scenario is that both cheese and pepperoni are available, and you see me freely choosing cheese, therefore you know I chose cheese by my own free will.

Answer this question:  Can you chose to do a thing that has not been seen (forseen, or past seen, or seen all at once, whatever you like).?  Can you chose to do a thing that god does not already know you will do? Yes or no. Just answer this and then we can move on.

I can choose whatever I want. And I do. The thing is, since God can see all of time, He is already seeing me making my choices, whatever they are.

First, you still have not answered this simple yes or no question though you act as if you have. I'll try and phrase it differently. If god has seen you chose option a, is it ever at any point possible for you to chose option b? Yes or no.

As to your pizza analogy, this in no way demonstrates that you have freely chosen anything. If a rock is balanced atop a hill, and it seems to an observer that it might roll down either the north or south slope, when it finally rolls down the north slope, did it chose that of its own free will? Or did forces too small too see or too difficult to measure by eye alone cause it to go north?

Now, demonstrate to me that you posses more free will than that rock, and didn't eat cheese pizza because of a similar set of hard to identify at first glance causes, like hating pepperoni, menstruating, having recently eaten spicy food and desiring bland, having a sore butt from a recent hard poop, the chemicals in the water you recently drank making salty food less appealing, etc etc etc.

You presuppose that your free will exists and so think it is obvious in your example, but it simply isn't. You cannot actually demonstrate it's existence at all! Except through feelings and personal experiences of course, and I'm sure by now you know that does not count as evidence.

No one can demonstrate free will, so far. If you can, get ready for your Nobel prize in physics!

[Catholic_Lady]

Hm? I'm not sure I follow. The scenario is that both cheese and pepperoni are available, and you see me freely choosing cheese, therefore you know I chose cheese by my own free will.    


I can choose whatever I want. And I do. The thing is, since God can see all of time, He is already seeing me making my choices, whatever they are.

First, you still have not answered this simple yes or no question though you act as if you have. I'll try and phrase it differently. If god has seen you chose option a, is it ever at any point possible for you to chose option b? Yes or no.

I already answered it. You just won't accept my response.

The problem is, and I don't want to say it's a loaded question because I know you're not doing that on purpose, but the question is asked as though I'm claiming that God would be foreseeing the future. Which I already explained isn't how I believe it works.

As to your pizza analogy, this in no way demonstrates that you have freely chosen anything. If a rock is balanced atop a hill, and it seems to an observer that it might roll down either the north or south slope, when it finally rolls down the north slope, did it chose that of its own free will? Or did forces too small too see or too difficult to measure by eye alone cause it to go north?

Now, demonstrate to me that you posses more free will than that rock, and didn't eat cheese pizza because of a similar set of hard to identify at first glance causes, like hating pepperoni, menstruating, having recently eaten spicy food and desiring bland, having a sore butt from a recent hard poop, the chemicals in the water you recently drank making salty food less appealing, etc etc etc.

You presuppose that your free will exists and so think it is obvious in your example, but it simply isn't.  You cannot actually demonstrate it's existence at all! Except through feelings and personal experiences of course, and I'm sure by now you know that does not count as evidence.

No one can demonstrate free will, so far. If you can, get ready for your Nobel prize in physics!

Regardless of whether I'm constipated or not, I'm still choosing to eat cheese by my own will to do so. I could just as easily choose the pepperoni and deal with the consequences. But it seems we're on 2 different ships. That example was merely to explain how God can know our future actions without having controlled them/taken away our free will. I wasn't arguing free will in and of itself. That's whole other rabbit hole.

(EDITED for clarity)

[Mystical]

You uhhh. You missed my point entirely. I'm talking about, say, still born babies. Or aborted babies. Or babies god commanded have their heads crashed upon the rocks in the Old Testament. I also put in an example of the Eskimo. Someone who would never hear the "good news" or be able to accept Christ's supposed offering. What happens to their free will if they auto go to heaven? Or hell, for that matter?

I have no idea.  I have no idea what happens to anyone's Free Will once they die.  I don't see what Free Will has to do with someone being religious or not, much less if they ever had a chance to be religious.  

Are you just F#*/ING with me? Please let me know now, as I don't really want to waste my breath on someone who isn't serious.

Assuming you can't understand what I'm talking about, or what I'm saying.. I'll break it down for you.

God creates man. 
God creates heaven, and hell. 
Man must choose Christ and go to heaven, or be sent to hell.
For those unable to get the choice in life , like the Eskimo analogy, then they go to heaven by fiat.
They didn't choose Jesus or to reject him, they just get a free ticket to heaven.
For those humans (like babies) who die before they can make such an eternal choice--they too get a free ticket to heaven. 
Neither scenarios offered up any situational free will. They just end up in heaven.

Suppose that that happened to you. Suppose that before you were able to reach year 1, you died.
When you got to heaven, you find out that you're there but your mom? Well she just couldn't handle your loss, she committed suicide and went to hell. God says dont worry about it, happens all the time, OH WELL.

Would you not have any pity in your heart whatsoever for your mum, who fed you from her breast, and loved you so much she couldn't live without you? Would you not beg god to change his mind about tormenting her soul for an eternity? When he says no.. do you really think you'd be okay with that answer?

When you found out hell was eternal torment of the higest order, and that God created it knowing people like your mom would end up there.. wouldn't you be a little miffed about the whole thing when you find out this whole situation was set up by God so he could have a minority of all his creation choose him , but you didn't even get that choice so [quote what's the point?

My point is that free will being gods reasoning for the current state of creation, is not a valid argument. 

I didn't respond to your anecdote about going to heaven because I didn't and still don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.  

Do you understand now? Or, as I suspect, are you just playing mental gymnastics in order to avoid thinking too much about the invalidity of Free Will as a causation for the horrific. Conditions innocent humans are subjected to on this earth and how utterly ubsurd it is to believe that it's allowed to occur by an omnipotent,  omniscient being who simply wants to give you free will to choose to be his buddy?