Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Aroura]

I think this is really odd that you think that coming up with the idea that God is outside time and space (which has not been divinely revealed to anyone as far as I know) somehow fixes all of this.  If there is free-will, is it not possible that there are many outcomes to each possible choice? Maybe god sees time more like a branching tree than like the linear first this then this line that you imagine.  This would actually fit more with the idea of Free-will.

 

The belief that God is beyond (or not limited by, or outside of, etc... however we wanna word it) space and time is a Catholic belief. I think many, if not most, other Christians have this view as well. It is far from something that I just "came up with." I am genuinely surprised that you have never heard that before. Passages in the bible allude to it as well. ( https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html )

Yes, of course there are many outcomes to each possible choice, and we make our choices freely. The thing is, God knows what we will choose because He is not being limited by time, which means He's seeing everything play out all at once. He is not in the present moment, foreseeing the future. He is in all moments. That's where I used the pizza example to try to explain this, but I think it got taken a different way. Anyway, I can't see how this is contrary to having free will, just as you can't see how it isn't, so I don't think we are going to come to a better understanding than that.      

Theists say humans cannot know the mind of God, then proceed to explain how they totally know the mind of God.  /facepalm

I don't claim to totally know the mind of God. I have my own theories about why certain things are as they are, but this by no means comes close to everything, and I acknowledge that they are my own guesses. However, the belief that God transcends space and time is a result of our belief that He is spirit, which is pretty fundamental and I don't think it falls into this category.  

Of course there is no evidence for either of these things (free-will or God), you essentially have to assert things that you cannot know as fact (ie God exists outside time and space).  This really does remind me of arguing about comic book characters, so I'm bowing out.  

There is no point in continuing this argument, since you are using fiction, and your own personal fiction not even one taught from a common source such as the bible, to make your argument, the goalposts can always be moved.  This isn't a topic about which you are willing to think about alternatives, because you already know the answer, and that answer is important to how you view the world.  A core belief.

Core beliefs are the most difficult to actually examine.  Sometimes I forget that presenting facts against them can actually strengthen them.  And you know, I don't know why I argue to shake them in other people.  I cannot honestly say I'm "happier" after having the courage to look at mine and change it all.  Quite the opposite.  So I'm done arguing any religious points with people for 2 main reasons.
a) it rarely changes people
b) even though I think magical thinking is causing massive global problems, I don't know that most people actually CAN handle the truth. I can barely handle it all myself.  Is it better to face reality?  Yes, I think it is, even if it makes people less "happy".  Maybe after our population is massively reduced by water and food shortages, disease and war and natural disasters from climate Change, the people of the future will need to face it all, and be able to.  IDK, and nothing I can do about it anyway. (that's like 6 reasons crammed into 1)

Anyway, that all probably sounds condescending, and I don't mean it to be.  I was just thinking that my mom still believes in God and Free will, and I never get into talks like this with her. If she brings anything like this topic up, I mostly just listen. She's over 70 now, and recently had a stroke.  I was in the hospital with her, and saw the love letter from God that the Chaplain gave her.  She won't be around forever, and these things comfort her in her fear and grief.  If I can restrain myself from arguing these things with me mom, why should I treat anyone else differently? If it makes people happy, and they do not care to research it and examine it on your own, who am I to try and enlighten perfect strangers?  It's not my business, so I'm done here.

This topic (religion in general I suppose) seems rather personal/emotional to you. It seems you still struggle with feeling let down and still struggle with the idea that we ceases to exist when we die. And maybe you feel some sort of envy, and thus contempt (for lack of better words, mind you) for those who still have such beliefs? I apologize if I'm wrong, so correct me if I am. But if I'm being completely honest with you, that's how it's coming across to me. And perhaps that's why it's coming off so condescending when you don't mean it to be?  

For what it's worth though, this was never meant to be an "argument" on my own part. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I answered the OP's question (and even said "this is my opinion"), which led to more questions regarding my views. I've been trying to answer them as best as I can so that I am understood by those asking. I hope it wasn't taken as me preaching or trying to debate.

I think you are quite right.  I do feel both contempt and envy for those who still hold to these beliefs. Everyone is different, and I believe many atheists are actually quite happy and content with their lack of magical beliefs, so I speak only for myself.  Sometimes I wish I weren't quite such a muggle.   

I think if I had been able to let go of fantasy when I was younger, as many do, perhaps in my teens, I think I would not have such strong emotions about it.  But since I was unable to fully let go until I was much older, I never learned any real coping techniques as a young person, when things learned more easily become second nature.  

Once I was able to let go of the idea of God, prayer became meaningless, and since religion teaches absolutely no ways to cope with life aside outside of prayer and giving things up to God, I was left in the lurch for quite some time.  I do have some coping techniques now, so I don't run around in a panic all day anymore, but it is still a daily struggle to implement these things I should have learned as a child, things that should be second nature, and are to many people, but not to me.  Instead I was taught to cope using magical thinking, which is useless, so yeah, resentment follows.

This is why taking it away from other adults is probably a bad idea.  We need to not instill such nonsense in people in the first place, and teach people to cope with reality early in life instead. We should not shelter them from reality with comforting lies, such false comfort is ultimately not only useless, but harmful to how they are able to actually think for the rest of their lives.

So yes.  I resent that I was essentially lied to and crippled emotionally as a young person.  I am disgusted that other people do this to their own children and think themselves good for doing so.  At the same time, at least part of me envies the ability to hold to such comforting fiction.  I think it is similar to longing again for the comfort of childhood, when I didn't have to worry about things, because I knew someone more powerful (mom, dad, a priest, god, a teacher, etc) would keep me safe, and make things right when they went wrong.  But I also know it's fiction, so I'm back to resenting it and the people who hold it.  It's a big, ugly cycle.     It's hard not to sound condecending about ideas that I believe are essentially immature lies and childish.  Particularly when the vast majority of people holding them are utter hypocrites.

And I latch onto you specifically because I was also Catholic, and of course I'm female.  So I see myself in you, at least a bit.  Young, naive, pollyanna.  Everyone used to like me.  I was popular, had a good job, a good life, though always with hardships. And there is more we have in common, but not stuff I'll state publicly here. At any rate, I shouldn't focus it on you, and I'm sorry I do.  At the same time, we are what we are, you know? 

But you aren't preaching, just answering.  I'm not trying to preach either, just trying to explain my views as well.

Peace.