Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Valyza1]

I have no idea.  I have no idea what happens to anyone's Free Will once they die.  I don't see what Free Will has to do with someone being religious or not, much less if they ever had a chance to be religious.  

Are you just F#*/ING with me? Please let me know now, as I don't really want to waste my breath on someone who isn't serious.

Assuming you can't understand what I'm talking about, or what I'm saying.. I'll break it down for you.

God creates man. 
God creates heaven, and hell. 
Man must choose Christ and go to heaven, or be sent to hell.
For those unable to get the choice in life , like the Eskimo analogy, then they go to heaven by fiat.
They didn't choose Jesus or to reject him, they just get a free ticket to heaven.
For those humans (like babies) who die before they can make such an eternal choice--they too get a free ticket to heaven. 
Neither scenarios offered up any situational free will. They just end up in heaven.

Suppose that that happened to you. Suppose that before you were able to reach year 1, you died.
When you got to heaven, you find out that you're there but your mom? Well she just couldn't handle your loss, she committed suicide and went to hell. God says dont worry about it, happens all the time, OH WELL.

Would you not have any pity in your heart whatsoever for your mum, who fed you from her breast, and loved you so much she couldn't live without you? Would you not beg god to change his mind about tormenting her soul for an eternity? When he says no.. do you really think you'd be okay with that answer?

When you found out hell was eternal torment of the higest order, and that God created it knowing people like your mom would end up there.. wouldn't you be a little miffed about the whole thing when you find out this whole situation was set up by God so he could have a minority of all his creation choose him , but you didn't even get that choice so [quote what's the point?

My point is that free will being gods reasoning for the current state of creation, is not a valid argument. 

I didn't respond to your anecdote about going to heaven because I didn't and still don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.  

Do you understand now? Or, as I suspect, are you just playing mental gymnastics in order to avoid thinking too much about the invalidity of Free Will as a causation for the horrific. Conditions innocent humans are subjected to on this earth and how utterly ubsurd it is to believe that it's allowed to occur by an omnipotent,  omniscient being who simply wants to give you free will to choose to be his buddy?

I'm not playing mental gymnastics to avoid anything, I'm just trying to minimize the necessity of having to invoke unnecessary burdens of proof, by keeping the conversation to talking about Free Will vs Determinism. It makes for a more clear, streamlined discussion. I have thoughts on your objections, but the reason they're off topic is because they presume a whole bunch of ideas (Heaven, Hell, Christian doctrine) that aren't necessary to believe in order to believe in Free Will, which is what we're talking about.

Free Will isn't defined as the ability to choose God, it's defined as the ability to choose anything at all that one wills. The consequences of choosing God/Jesus or of not choosing such are a separate conversation. I'm happy to have that conversation, though I am shakier about my stances on it, but it is a separate conversation. All I'm trying to do here is show that Free Will and Determinism aren't necessarily incompatible, although I'm starting to discover that the definition of Free Will I'm using isn't exactly the definition other people in the thread are going by.

[Harry Nevis]

We were in paradise; humanity showed an inclination to believing and following Satan over God; so God sent both Satan and humanity to earth; bashing each other until the hour.

Again, like I said before: If you believe God is omnipotent is it not logical to conclude that he could have made an improved human who still possessed free will - one who was more likely to choose freely the course of good.
And, what about the hundreds of millions of living things that died terrible deaths long before humans appeared on the scene?

Being omnipotent means He has the power to control everything (within His own nature), but that doesn't mean He does.

Yeah this sounds like God from the movie "Oh, God!" played by George Burns where he admits he isn't perfect. He says he would do things differently the next time he creates a universe. For one thing, he would not give the avocado such a large pit.

He chose to create a natural world where things happen as they will.

This is called living in denial.
So malaria virus just happened and we should not blame god? Just like tsunamis that kill hundreds of thousands of people. More than nine million children die each year because of poverty. That's approximately twenty-five thousand each day.

Ask one christian, and you're told they were all sinners and deserved it.  Ask another, and they were special to god and he called them home. Ask Drich, and they must have been evil, and who cares, I got mine.  I guess Sickle Cell evolved to thwart god's plan. Damn eviloution!

---

You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

We are described as "slaves" in the Quran:

The easiest slave to control is one who is thankful for it.

---

No. I'm not saying that free will is the absence of determinism. I'm saying that the kind of free will that is incompatible with determinism is logically impossible and logically incoherent.

And I'm saying that the kind of free will that is compatible with determinism is so trivially true that it's not worthy to even be a part of the free will discussion. Compatabilism is an embarassment.

A compatabilist joining the free will debate is like a dude running up to a bunch of inventors and scientists trying to create a time machine and saying "Hey guys! I've solved it! Time is space-time so we already travel through time when we travel through space.... you're time travelling now just by walking up to me to punch me in the face for side-stepping the problem! Yay!.... wait..."

---

The opposite of compatabilist free will.

All I ever thought I was talking about when discussing Free Will is the ability to pursue whatever it is that we will to pursue.  It's about as simple as that.  It doesn't mean we will always attain the object of our pursuit nor that the will itself to pursue is undetermined, just that we are free to engage in the pursuit no matter what hindrances come about.   The sense of freedom is neither true nor false, it's just a sense of freedom.  It is the constant opportunity to synchronize our desires to our reality.  If only absolute freedom can be considered free, then there is no freedom at all.  Even God would not be considered free because He is constrained by His own will.  

But in the context of god, free will is not simple as that.

[Aroura]

First, you still have not answered this simple yes or no question though you act as if you have. I'll try and phrase it differently. If god has seen you chose option a, is it ever at any point possible for you to chose option b? Yes or no.

I already answered it. You just won't accept my response.

The problem is, and I don't want to say it's a loaded question because I know you're not doing that on purpose, but the question is asked as though I'm claiming that God would be foreseeing the future. Which I already explained isn't how I believe it works.

As to your pizza analogy, this in no way demonstrates that you have freely chosen anything. If a rock is balanced atop a hill, and it seems to an observer that it might roll down either the north or south slope, when it finally rolls down the north slope, did it chose that of its own free will? Or did forces too small too see or too difficult to measure by eye alone cause it to go north?

Now, demonstrate to me that you posses more free will than that rock, and didn't eat cheese pizza because of a similar set of hard to identify at first glance causes, like hating pepperoni, menstruating, having recently eaten spicy food and desiring bland, having a sore butt from a recent hard poop, the chemicals in the water you recently drank making salty food less appealing, etc etc etc.

You presuppose that your free will exists and so think it is obvious in your example, but it simply isn't.  You cannot actually demonstrate it's existence at all! Except through feelings and personal experiences of course, and I'm sure by now you know that does not count as evidence.

No one can demonstrate free will, so far. If you can, get ready for your Nobel prize in physics!

Regardless of whether I'm constipated or not, I'm still choosing to eat cheese by my own will to do so. I could just as easily choose the pepperoni and deal with the consequences. But it seems we're on 2 different ships. That example was merely to explain how God can know our future actions without having controlled them/taken away our free will. I wasn't arguing free will in and of itself. That's whole other rabbit hole.

(EDITED for clarity)

I think this is really odd that you think that coming up with the idea that God is outside time and space (which has not been divinely revealed to anyone as far as I know) somehow fixes all of this.  If there is free-will, is it not possible that there are many outcomes to each possible choice? Maybe god sees time more like a branching tree than like the linear first this then this line that you imagine.  This would actually fit more with the idea of Free-will.  

Theists say humans cannot know the mind of God, then proceed to explain how they totally know the mind of God.  /facepalm

Of course there is no evidence for either of these things (free-will or God), you essentially have to assert things that you cannot know as fact (ie God exists outside time and space).  This really does remind me of arguing about comic book characters, so I'm bowing out.  

There is no point in continuing this argument, since you are using fiction, and your own personal fiction not even one taught from a common source such as the bible, to make your argument, the goalposts can always be moved.  This isn't a topic about which you are willing to think about alternatives, because you already know the answer, and that answer is important to how you view the world.  A core belief.

Core beliefs are the most difficult to actually examine.  Sometimes I forget that presenting facts against them can actually strengthen them.  And you know, I don't know why I argue to shake them in other people.  I cannot honestly say I'm "happier" after having the courage to look at mine and change it all.  Quite the opposite.  So I'm done arguing any religious points with people for 2 main reasons.
a) it rarely changes people
b) even though I think magical thinking is causing massive global problems, I don't know that most people actually CAN handle the truth. I can barely handle it all myself.  Is it better to face reality?  Yes, I think it is, even if it makes people less "happy".  Maybe after our population is massively reduced by water and food shortages, disease and war and natural disasters from climate Change, the people of the future will need to face it all, and be able to.  IDK, and nothing I can do about it anyway. (that's like 6 reasons crammed into 1)

Anyway, that all probably sounds condescending, and I don't mean it to be.  I was just thinking that my mom still believes in God and Free will, and I never get into talks like this with her. If she brings anything like this topic up, I mostly just listen. She's over 70 now, and recently had a stroke.  I was in the hospital with her, and saw the love letter from God that the Chaplain gave her.  She won't be around forever, and these things comfort her in her fear and grief.  If I can restrain myself from arguing these things with me mom, why should I treat anyone else differently? If it makes people happy, and they do not care to research it and examine it on your own, who am I to try and enlighten perfect strangers?  It's not my business, so I'm done here.

[Catholic_Lady]

I already answered it. You just won't accept my response.

The problem is, and I don't want to say it's a loaded question because I know you're not doing that on purpose, but the question is asked as though I'm claiming that God would be foreseeing the future. Which I already explained isn't how I believe it works.


Regardless of whether I'm constipated or not, I'm still choosing to eat cheese by my own will to do so. I could just as easily choose the pepperoni and deal with the consequences. But it seems we're on 2 different ships. That example was merely to explain how God can know our future actions without having controlled them/taken away our free will. I wasn't arguing free will in and of itself. That's whole other rabbit hole.

(EDITED for clarity)

I think this is really odd that you think that coming up with the idea that God is outside time and space (which has not been divinely revealed to anyone as far as I know) somehow fixes all of this.  If there is free-will, is it not possible that there are many outcomes to each possible choice? Maybe god sees time more like a branching tree than like the linear first this then this line that you imagine.  This would actually fit more with the idea of Free-will.

 

The belief that God is beyond (or not limited by, or outside of, etc... however we wanna word it) space and time is a Catholic belief. I think many, if not most, other Christians have this view as well. It is far from something that I just "came up with." I am genuinely surprised that you have never heard that before. Passages in the bible allude to it as well. ( https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html )

Yes, of course there are many outcomes to each possible choice, and we make our choices freely. The thing is, God knows what we will choose because He is not being limited by time, which means He's seeing everything play out all at once. He is not in the present moment, foreseeing the future. He is in all moments. That's where I used the pizza example to try to explain this, but I think it got taken a different way. Anyway, I can't see how this is contrary to having free will, just as you can't see how it isn't, so I don't think we are going to come to a better understanding than that.      

Theists say humans cannot know the mind of God, then proceed to explain how they totally know the mind of God.  /facepalm

I don't claim to totally know the mind of God. I have my own theories about why certain things are as they are, but this by no means comes close to everything, and I acknowledge that they are my own guesses. However, the belief that God transcends space and time is a result of our belief that He is spirit, which is pretty fundamental and I don't think it falls into this category.  

Of course there is no evidence for either of these things (free-will or God), you essentially have to assert things that you cannot know as fact (ie God exists outside time and space).  This really does remind me of arguing about comic book characters, so I'm bowing out.  

There is no point in continuing this argument, since you are using fiction, and your own personal fiction not even one taught from a common source such as the bible, to make your argument, the goalposts can always be moved.  This isn't a topic about which you are willing to think about alternatives, because you already know the answer, and that answer is important to how you view the world.  A core belief.

Core beliefs are the most difficult to actually examine.  Sometimes I forget that presenting facts against them can actually strengthen them.  And you know, I don't know why I argue to shake them in other people.  I cannot honestly say I'm "happier" after having the courage to look at mine and change it all.  Quite the opposite.  So I'm done arguing any religious points with people for 2 main reasons.
a) it rarely changes people
b) even though I think magical thinking is causing massive global problems, I don't know that most people actually CAN handle the truth. I can barely handle it all myself.  Is it better to face reality?  Yes, I think it is, even if it makes people less "happy".  Maybe after our population is massively reduced by water and food shortages, disease and war and natural disasters from climate Change, the people of the future will need to face it all, and be able to.  IDK, and nothing I can do about it anyway. (that's like 6 reasons crammed into 1)

Anyway, that all probably sounds condescending, and I don't mean it to be.  I was just thinking that my mom still believes in God and Free will, and I never get into talks like this with her. If she brings anything like this topic up, I mostly just listen. She's over 70 now, and recently had a stroke.  I was in the hospital with her, and saw the love letter from God that the Chaplain gave her.  She won't be around forever, and these things comfort her in her fear and grief.  If I can restrain myself from arguing these things with me mom, why should I treat anyone else differently? If it makes people happy, and they do not care to research it and examine it on your own, who am I to try and enlighten perfect strangers?  It's not my business, so I'm done here.

This topic (religion in general I suppose) seems rather personal/emotional to you. It seems you still struggle with feeling let down and still struggle with the idea that we ceases to exist when we die. And maybe you feel some sort of envy, and thus contempt (for lack of better words, mind you) for those who still have such beliefs? I apologize if I'm wrong, so correct me if I am. But if I'm being completely honest with you, that's how it's coming across to me. And perhaps that's why it's coming off so condescending when you don't mean it to be?  

For what it's worth though, this was never meant to be an "argument" on my own part. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I answered the OP's question (and even said "this is my opinion"), which led to more questions regarding my views. I've been trying to answer them as best as I can so that I am understood by those asking. I hope it wasn't taken as me preaching or trying to debate.

[LastPoet]

I never thought nor implied that you were trying to convince anyone.  What I did assume was that you had some generous motive for answering in the first place.

[edit]also, no.  I don't consider reality a point of view.  I consider your point of view a point of view.  The absence of a god is not "reality".  It is not science.  It is a way of seeing the world.  Period.

About paragraph 1: Consider generous of me to even bother to answer the OP. I value my time and consider that in my free time I gave the OP an answer. This is a discussion forum, is it not?

About your ETA: please do not compare my view of reality to a theistic one. While you are trying to shift the burden of proof, it is me that deal with real life, people and the natural word. Theists are the ones that need to define precisely and prove, so that anyone can see, of their god, whatever that is. The same thing I say about believers in the tooth fairy. It is an extraordinary claim, usually Its theists that have to provide proof of that.

Until then, I can safely say theists sell Shit for Shinola, and call them on their bullshit. If ot hurts your sensibilities, oh well. Too bad.

[Rhondazvous]

You want to get the opinion of people with strong faith? I think you came to the wrong site for that.

If you want my opinion, though, prayer doesn't seem to have any effect.

Oh I believed the site would have persons with faith.

Then what is the religion section for?

First, welcome to Atheist Forums.

Second, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that our religious threads would be what you're looking for. The idea that Atheist Forums came up when you googled for strong faith strikes me as unlikely, but maybe not impossible.

[Brian37]

@Catholic Lady,

You, "I don't claim to totally know the mind of God."

It does not matter to us if you are claiming all or part. This is sidestepping and looking for an excuse to hold your position.

I apply the SAME LOGIC to any god claim of any religion, not just yours.

Before you even get to the first word of any holy writing you have to prove the existence of a god first.

You don't realize that you are working backwards logically speaking. You started with an assumption that a god is even required. 

This is not evidence on your part, this is merely YOU making an emotional justification for what you merely like to believe is true.

You've never seen him in person, you have no physical record of his existence. Just like you have never seen Vishnu or Apollo in person. Sure there are tons of claims from Hindus, and Jews and Muslims and polytheists too. 


You ask people of other religions some will say they absolutely know, and others say "I don't know, but I have some ideas".

How about considering humans make up all religions and all god claims?

What would be so frightening if you suddenly figured out we were right and there is no divine power pulling our strings? Do you think you would suddenly burst into flames? Some of your fellow Christians and even right wing Catholics would say you merely being here considering our posts is evil and deserving of punishment. 

I know what happened to me when I finally realized this was it, nothing happened to me. I switched to my off position back in the mid 1990s. It is 2017 and I am still kicking. You can do it too, don't let fear hold you back, there is nothing to fear.

[Aroura]

I think this is really odd that you think that coming up with the idea that God is outside time and space (which has not been divinely revealed to anyone as far as I know) somehow fixes all of this.  If there is free-will, is it not possible that there are many outcomes to each possible choice? Maybe god sees time more like a branching tree than like the linear first this then this line that you imagine.  This would actually fit more with the idea of Free-will.

 

The belief that God is beyond (or not limited by, or outside of, etc... however we wanna word it) space and time is a Catholic belief. I think many, if not most, other Christians have this view as well. It is far from something that I just "came up with." I am genuinely surprised that you have never heard that before. Passages in the bible allude to it as well. ( https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html )

Yes, of course there are many outcomes to each possible choice, and we make our choices freely. The thing is, God knows what we will choose because He is not being limited by time, which means He's seeing everything play out all at once. He is not in the present moment, foreseeing the future. He is in all moments. That's where I used the pizza example to try to explain this, but I think it got taken a different way. Anyway, I can't see how this is contrary to having free will, just as you can't see how it isn't, so I don't think we are going to come to a better understanding than that.      

Theists say humans cannot know the mind of God, then proceed to explain how they totally know the mind of God.  /facepalm

I don't claim to totally know the mind of God. I have my own theories about why certain things are as they are, but this by no means comes close to everything, and I acknowledge that they are my own guesses. However, the belief that God transcends space and time is a result of our belief that He is spirit, which is pretty fundamental and I don't think it falls into this category.  

Of course there is no evidence for either of these things (free-will or God), you essentially have to assert things that you cannot know as fact (ie God exists outside time and space).  This really does remind me of arguing about comic book characters, so I'm bowing out.  

There is no point in continuing this argument, since you are using fiction, and your own personal fiction not even one taught from a common source such as the bible, to make your argument, the goalposts can always be moved.  This isn't a topic about which you are willing to think about alternatives, because you already know the answer, and that answer is important to how you view the world.  A core belief.

Core beliefs are the most difficult to actually examine.  Sometimes I forget that presenting facts against them can actually strengthen them.  And you know, I don't know why I argue to shake them in other people.  I cannot honestly say I'm "happier" after having the courage to look at mine and change it all.  Quite the opposite.  So I'm done arguing any religious points with people for 2 main reasons.
a) it rarely changes people
b) even though I think magical thinking is causing massive global problems, I don't know that most people actually CAN handle the truth. I can barely handle it all myself.  Is it better to face reality?  Yes, I think it is, even if it makes people less "happy".  Maybe after our population is massively reduced by water and food shortages, disease and war and natural disasters from climate Change, the people of the future will need to face it all, and be able to.  IDK, and nothing I can do about it anyway. (that's like 6 reasons crammed into 1)

Anyway, that all probably sounds condescending, and I don't mean it to be.  I was just thinking that my mom still believes in God and Free will, and I never get into talks like this with her. If she brings anything like this topic up, I mostly just listen. She's over 70 now, and recently had a stroke.  I was in the hospital with her, and saw the love letter from God that the Chaplain gave her.  She won't be around forever, and these things comfort her in her fear and grief.  If I can restrain myself from arguing these things with me mom, why should I treat anyone else differently? If it makes people happy, and they do not care to research it and examine it on your own, who am I to try and enlighten perfect strangers?  It's not my business, so I'm done here.

This topic (religion in general I suppose) seems rather personal/emotional to you. It seems you still struggle with feeling let down and still struggle with the idea that we ceases to exist when we die. And maybe you feel some sort of envy, and thus contempt (for lack of better words, mind you) for those who still have such beliefs? I apologize if I'm wrong, so correct me if I am. But if I'm being completely honest with you, that's how it's coming across to me. And perhaps that's why it's coming off so condescending when you don't mean it to be?  

For what it's worth though, this was never meant to be an "argument" on my own part. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I answered the OP's question (and even said "this is my opinion"), which led to more questions regarding my views. I've been trying to answer them as best as I can so that I am understood by those asking. I hope it wasn't taken as me preaching or trying to debate.

I think you are quite right.  I do feel both contempt and envy for those who still hold to these beliefs. Everyone is different, and I believe many atheists are actually quite happy and content with their lack of magical beliefs, so I speak only for myself.  Sometimes I wish I weren't quite such a muggle.   

I think if I had been able to let go of fantasy when I was younger, as many do, perhaps in my teens, I think I would not have such strong emotions about it.  But since I was unable to fully let go until I was much older, I never learned any real coping techniques as a young person, when things learned more easily become second nature.  

Once I was able to let go of the idea of God, prayer became meaningless, and since religion teaches absolutely no ways to cope with life aside outside of prayer and giving things up to God, I was left in the lurch for quite some time.  I do have some coping techniques now, so I don't run around in a panic all day anymore, but it is still a daily struggle to implement these things I should have learned as a child, things that should be second nature, and are to many people, but not to me.  Instead I was taught to cope using magical thinking, which is useless, so yeah, resentment follows.

This is why taking it away from other adults is probably a bad idea.  We need to not instill such nonsense in people in the first place, and teach people to cope with reality early in life instead. We should not shelter them from reality with comforting lies, such false comfort is ultimately not only useless, but harmful to how they are able to actually think for the rest of their lives.

So yes.  I resent that I was essentially lied to and crippled emotionally as a young person.  I am disgusted that other people do this to their own children and think themselves good for doing so.  At the same time, at least part of me envies the ability to hold to such comforting fiction.  I think it is similar to longing again for the comfort of childhood, when I didn't have to worry about things, because I knew someone more powerful (mom, dad, a priest, god, a teacher, etc) would keep me safe, and make things right when they went wrong.  But I also know it's fiction, so I'm back to resenting it and the people who hold it.  It's a big, ugly cycle.     It's hard not to sound condecending about ideas that I believe are essentially immature lies and childish.  Particularly when the vast majority of people holding them are utter hypocrites.

And I latch onto you specifically because I was also Catholic, and of course I'm female.  So I see myself in you, at least a bit.  Young, naive, pollyanna.  Everyone used to like me.  I was popular, had a good job, a good life, though always with hardships. And there is more we have in common, but not stuff I'll state publicly here. At any rate, I shouldn't focus it on you, and I'm sorry I do.  At the same time, we are what we are, you know? 

But you aren't preaching, just answering.  I'm not trying to preach either, just trying to explain my views as well.

Peace.

[brewer]

C_L, if it makes you feel good, go with it. I'm not willing to accept your belief but I'm willing to accept you. (except for some of those icky parts/shudders)

[Brian37]

C_L, if it makes you feel good, go with it. I'm not willing to accept your belief but I'm willing to accept you. (except for some of those icky parts/shudders)

Me too, but I am also willing to accept it if she figures out we were right. Someone planted doubt in my head long ago and I wish I could go back and thank them. But if she never sees what we see, the only request I would have is the same of anyone of any religion, don't demand religious based laws, don't get violent with those who blaspheme you, but I think she already thinks that way.