(May 29, 2017 at 11:17 am)Valyza1 Wrote:(May 29, 2017 at 4:00 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Do you only do things because you expect them to succeed? If so, I'd say you are missing out on life my friend. Some of the best things in life are wasting time and effort on hopeless causes.
But still. Why you or I may never have changed anyone's point of view altogether on this big question, why would that stop us? For starters, do you believe no one has ever deconverted or converted? My change to atheist happened gradually, but couldn't have happened without people bringing up decent points to pull the wool from my eyes, sort of speak. And even if that weren't to happen, isn't it a basic sign of respect and human decency to engage in conversation and try to understand not only the other's position but come to challenge your own? Not saying this is your intent, but if I were to try and shut down the conversation all together, it'd probably be because I have a point of view so fragile and undefendeable it can't withstand honest reasoning and discourse yet I don't want to give it up.
I'm on atheist forums (.com & .org) on the one hand to converse with fellow atheists. But also because I like, from time to time, to engage views that opposite and challenge my own. I want to know what you think and why you think it. I want to know why I believe what I believe and don't believe what I don't believe.
And without this 'looking-glass self' tough chance of that happening.
Engaging in healthy, communal, educational debate is great, as long as in the final analysis, there's a mutual respectfulness exhibited by both debaters. That's great to see on the forums. But when people argue with the mentality that the other side is deficient for being on the other side, I find that anti-productive and futile.
Personally, I tend to think that converts on either side just never examined their initial position thoroughly enough to identify what they really believe. In such a case, examination is helpful as long as, again, it's honest examination. I don't see how that's possible when one's guard is up. Ridicule and condescension are not conducive to self-examination, IMO.
I see your point, but still. It depends. And it can be a great backfire. I remember I first started really questioning my own views on religion after I'd rudely dismissed a classmate's belief in the abilities of 'psychic investigators' as unfounded nonsense and ridiculed her for believing in something without having any evidence to point anyone towards to. No more than three seconds later a little voice in my head went: "Yeah, kind of like your belief in Christianity."
But as a rule of thumb, I tend to agree. While I find the ideas behind religion ridiculous and utterly ridicule-worthy nowadays, when my conversational partner is polite I will reply in kind. Otherwise a decent conversation often seems impossible. It's only when one starts being demeaning to me that I tend to return the favor.
That all being said; I do don't really agree that converts on either side never examined their initial position thoroughly enough. Sometimes you can just have a gestaltswitch, sometimes just like that, sometimes brought on by grain by grain of argument until the weight of the final straw breaks the camel's back. Couple that with other attributes such as ego and stubborness which may cloud your objective ideas with subjective counterarguments. In that case, you've still concidered your arguments thoroughly, you just blocked them off internally for bad reasons. I, again speaking from my own experiences, had a hard time admitting I'd been wrong my entire life plus that I wasn't 'special', two things that really wreaked havoc on my bloated sense of self-importance. If I were ever to make the switch again, I imagine I'd find myself again hard-pressed to accept that I was wrong about this thing I only 'till recently described as ridiculous.
"If we go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, suggesting 69.
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- Your mum, last night, suggesting 69.
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