A Question From Atheists

[nosferatu323]

I'm trying to approach the subject with a modicum of intellectual integrity.

I'm trying to approach the subject with a modicum of intellectual integrity.

I think when you throw the woo there, there is no way you can make sense out of it and if we remove it we can only talk about "science". I think we can converse some "interesting" or even "fascinating" ideas. But nothing more. What sort of conclusion are you looking for? it'd help a lot to give the discussion a more specific direction. I think the best conclusion can be:

• Either totally rejecting with certainty the oneness thing and go live our life.
  
• Or accepting it with some doubt and go doing our own brand of practices  to see if it is true and don't stop until we cease to exist or we reach the first conclusion and return to our "normal" life
  

First conclusion is desirable but unfortunately impossible to reach before the second conclusion. Or maybe it is not impossible?

It seems as though we're attempting to talk about something distinct from that...and, again, I'm trying to figure out what that might be, and why it doesn't manifest itself as we would expect, either while we are meditating..while we have a dissociative break, while we're sleeping, or while we're driving a bus. 

I meant the stage of deep sleep when there are no dreams. The "I" is clearly absent. When the "I" returns (in a dream or when it wakes up) obviously it has no perception of the stage in which it wasn't present, since "I" was dead during that period. Oneness with the universe is a woo, it doesn't mean anything, "Oneness with universe" assumes being one and being separate with the universe at the same time which is clearly nonsensical.

Every attempt to describe what we are referring to as "Oneness with universe" is essentially nonsense. My assertion that "Oneness is nonsensical" is nonsensical itself, since the subject of it does not have any actual referent. So let it be that way "Oneness with the universe" nothing more. I don't think we can dig in it and play our language games with it. It'll be pointless and can even be dangerous. Because it can create a seemingly real delusion for us.

What is verifiable, is that people claim to possess an ability, or that some effect can be achieved.  What i also verifiable, is that those same people cannot do what they say can be done.  That what would happen, what would manifest itself as a verifiable effect -of- the claimed attribute or ability...just doesn't seem to be happening like we would expect.

Every person who claims "he is one with universe" is uttering nonsense and should be ignored. Since the "I" will be non-existent, it cannot say "I'm one with the universe" Prophet's always said "God sent me" they never said I'm god. A person can say "Universe is putting these words in my mouth to tell you not to kill each other" in this sense we are all prophets. So all the claims that people have about oneness with the Universe must be mere delusions. The promised Messiah will come when you realize you are the promised Messiah. 

It's not really that hard to start getting delusional. Meditation is a very powerful tool. With some practice you will find yourself dreaming while awake. You can dream of anything of course, specially dreaming about the oneness with the Universe. Using some drugs is a faster method.

I think the "I" is not actually dropped for anyone, perception of a dropped "I" is what is being experienced by drug users, practitioners of meditation, spiritual ecstasies experienced by many religious individuals, etc. They all have their fantasies of a dropped I. Since this "oneness" thing seems to be somewhere deep in the genes, it always appears in our wildest fantasies. All our myths, although our literature, etc.

I think the "malfunction thing" is also not a matter of semi-serious discussion. Since it's entirely based upon a non-sensical, yet intriguing concept of "Oneness with Universe". So I suggest we stop at this point. Do you think we can make any sense out of it by continuing talking about it?