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...Truth?
#19
RE: ...Truth?
I think you're trying too hard to read something into what I said...

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: pocaracas:
You say "I'm a curious person. I want to know how reality works. What is real and what isn't." This focuses your appreciation for truth, and your desire to only accept truth that is confirmed through what you believe of the world, on a simple desire to know. You don't believe theism because you perceive that it doesn't line up with science, and you've chosen to put your faith in empiricism. Furthermore, you want to know because... you want to know. It's a simple desire, unexplainable, but there nonetheless. That's valid, let's work with that. (If I've misunderstood you, please correct me.)

Oh, now you want to go down the rabbit hole, huh?
Is there any valid reason to accept the theist proposition as an accurate description of reality?

Empiricism, if you wish to call it that, presents us with our best way to probe reality.
Like I said before, I'm not interested in going down the solipsist way, so that's what I have left.... empiricism.

I want to know because I'm compelled to know. Because I feel pleasure in learning new wonderful things about reality. Because I'm the product of millions of years of evolution and a good deal of it was spent in learning about the reality around us.

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: According to your worldview, truth in an of itself has no intrinsic value. (Once again, if you believe it does, I'd love to hear an explanation.)

What is "intrinsic value"?
What is value? What renders something valuable?
Why do humans generally consider gold as valuable? Does gold have some intrinsic value? Is it just because it's relatively scarce and shiny and yellow like the Sun?

I will tell you that I value more an accurate description of reality than a random made up description. (which flies in the face of me paying money to watch a movie about unreal beings, and not paying money to watch a documentary Tongue but that's entertainment)


(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: You want to know things (the pleasure of exerting the mind inspires this want, perhaps); you've given yourself a definition of truth; you've decided that your truth, received solely through your senses and scientific study (empiricism, if I had to give it a label), is more valid than that of theism, or even the flying spaghetti monster, if you want to turn to the classic parody of religion. What you believe seems to me to be arbitrary. [If you need an explanation of why no worldviews may be based entirely on reason, I can give you that, by the way.]

What is a worldview?
I look at the world through my senses... how else would I view it? Making up yarns in my head and never actually experiencing reality?

And yes, empiricism is more valid than theism. It has a base to stand on. Theism has only tales and dreams.
If I go solipsist, these can both be equivalent.... but I said out from the gate that I'm dismissing solipsism, remember?

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: I guess what I'm asking is whether you would be as satisfied believing in theism as you would in atheism. I assume the answer would be no.
You assume correctly.

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: But this doesn't make sense as far as I can see—you hold to your beliefs arbitrarily, which means switching them would be arbitrary as well, unless you'd argue that your bent towards atheism is an inherent part of your identity and personality.
Which beliefs do I hold to?
That I have senses?
That they probe a real world?

As far as I know, every human being is born with pretty much the same sensory data at its disposal.
How is that arbitrary?

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: So why do you care what you believe? Do you? Do you care what other people believe?

What do I believe?

I care what other people believe to the extent that those beliefs impose themselves upon me while presenting what seems to be an erroneous description of reality.

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: If the answer to any of these questions is that you don't, I think we've safely established that your pursuit of truth is arbitrary and personal. I'm okay with that explanation. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it'll stand up under the question and it's honest.

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary.... more like inescapable.

(June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Insufferable Caleb Wrote: That means I'm still searching for why this pursuit of truth, for so many atheists, is not arbitrary, from a philosophical standpoint.

It is what it is.
And you do what you must.
Just try to be more precise with certain words... or, at least, provide a glossary, because not all words mean the same for everyone... specially in philosophy.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 3:20 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 3:37 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by vorlon13 - June 28, 2017 at 3:39 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 3:40 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 3:48 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Mister Agenda - June 30, 2017 at 2:40 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by vorlon13 - June 28, 2017 at 3:50 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 3:52 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by pocaracas - June 28, 2017 at 3:51 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 5:58 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by pocaracas - June 28, 2017 at 6:12 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 5:17 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 5:21 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 5:24 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 5:56 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by pocaracas - June 28, 2017 at 6:02 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 5:36 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 5:47 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by The Industrial Atheist - June 30, 2017 at 7:26 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 5:49 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 5:55 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 6:28 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by LadyForCamus - June 28, 2017 at 8:23 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by henryp - June 28, 2017 at 8:33 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 6:01 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 6:28 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 6:34 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 6:37 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 6:38 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 6:09 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 6:27 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 6:31 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 6:37 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 6:54 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 7:01 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:04 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:10 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:18 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:23 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:19 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:24 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:28 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:33 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:46 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:59 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 8:58 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 29, 2017 at 12:41 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Ravenshire - June 30, 2017 at 12:41 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 6:51 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Minimalist - June 28, 2017 at 6:40 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 6:41 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 6:43 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 6:53 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 7:07 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Definitely Disillusioned - June 28, 2017 at 7:08 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by pocaracas - June 28, 2017 at 7:14 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 28, 2017 at 7:16 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by brewer - June 28, 2017 at 7:16 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 7:10 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 28, 2017 at 7:21 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Alex K - June 28, 2017 at 7:17 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by bennyboy - June 28, 2017 at 7:18 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by henryp - June 28, 2017 at 8:07 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by LadyForCamus - June 28, 2017 at 8:47 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by henryp - June 28, 2017 at 8:50 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by LadyForCamus - June 28, 2017 at 8:53 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Court Jester - June 28, 2017 at 10:36 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ignoramus - June 28, 2017 at 11:47 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by The Valkyrie - June 28, 2017 at 11:54 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by ignoramus - June 29, 2017 at 12:08 am
RE: ...Truth? - by The Valkyrie - June 29, 2017 at 12:12 am
RE: ...Truth? - by DogmaticDownSouth - June 29, 2017 at 11:29 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 30, 2017 at 12:39 am
RE: ...Truth? - by DogmaticDownSouth - June 30, 2017 at 1:09 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Amarok - June 30, 2017 at 1:13 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 30, 2017 at 2:00 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Amarok - June 30, 2017 at 2:15 am
RE: ...Truth? - by ManofYesterday - June 30, 2017 at 5:17 am
RE: ...Truth? - by bennyboy - June 30, 2017 at 9:20 am
RE: ...Truth? - by LadyForCamus - June 30, 2017 at 9:42 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Whateverist - June 30, 2017 at 5:07 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by KerimF - June 30, 2017 at 5:21 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Edwardo Piet - June 30, 2017 at 9:21 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Edwardo Piet - June 30, 2017 at 9:46 am
RE: ...Truth? - by ignoramus - June 30, 2017 at 9:52 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Edwardo Piet - June 30, 2017 at 9:56 am
RE: ...Truth? - by ignoramus - June 30, 2017 at 10:02 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Edwardo Piet - June 30, 2017 at 10:04 am
RE: ...Truth? - by Amarok - June 30, 2017 at 12:30 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Amarok - June 30, 2017 at 12:51 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Edwardo Piet - June 30, 2017 at 3:44 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Mister Agenda - June 30, 2017 at 1:12 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Astonished - June 30, 2017 at 2:33 pm
RE: ...Truth? - by Amarok - June 30, 2017 at 3:32 pm

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