The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[Mister Agenda]

Amazing how you all devalue eyewitness testimony as though it has no importance. That's not how society works. Look at our judicial system - if you were accused of robbing a bank in broad daylight and even ONE witness were to come forward saying they saw you do it, that alone could convince a jury to lock you up.

Maybe your judicial system is different from ours. The eyewitness testimony is a claim. Eyewitness testimony is far from the best testimony; it's better than hearsay but not as good as physical evidence. In our system, there would be an investigation. Does the accused have an alibi? Does the accuser have a motivation to testify against the accused besides just witnessing the crime? Is there any reason to think the accuser is unreliable or mistaken?

We don't just take someone's word for it before we toss you in jail. The accused still has to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Now consider if 2 or 3 witnesses were to come forward - then it's a no-brainer for the jury - they will unanimously vote to lock you up for the rest your life. That's how valuable our society has always looked at eyewitnesses.

Again, you're mischaracterizing our justice system, science has shown how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be, and you would still have to prove the accused guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law where the testimony against him can be evaluated and analyzed and compared to other evidence and his accusers can be cross-examined before sentencing him to years in prison.

Now considering there are HUNDREDS of documented eyewitness testimonies for the miracle that took place in Fatima, we're not all going to suddenly pretend eyewitness testimonies have no value. Ask yourself WHY so many unanimous eyewitness testimonies exist, even when all these people didn't know each other.

Because a bunch of people stared at the sun too long and considered the wholly natural and inevitable optical illusion that resulted as a miracle.

You atheists don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to this argument, and all your bitterness and vulgarities aren't going to make these testimonials go away.

Any accredited ophthalmologist in the world can explain to you the kinds of thing you'll see if you stare at the sun too long.

Why don't we just start denying random events in history like the Civil War - after all, none of us were there and we don't know anyone who was, and we only rely on testimony passed down to us in books.

Because the evidence that the Civil War occurred is infinitely stronger than the evidence that the sun was dancing around the sky.

See, some things are better supported than others. A reasonable skeptic believes in the things that are better supported and withholds belief in things that are poorly supported. What's actually supported here is that a bunch of people saw what you see when you stare at the sun too long. If the sun was actually moving around, that would be amazing, and it wouldn't just be people staring at the sun who saw it. We had astronomers monitoring the sun back then, you know.

In the case of history, we look for independent corroboration of events by disinterested or opposing parties. If we had no physical evidence of the Civil War (we actually have an abundance of physical evidence), and no good reason for it being absent; we would have to question the testimony about the Civil War. We would be in a situation where the reports seem well-supported; but where are the artifacts? The photographs? The graves? That would turn the Civil War from a very well-documented historical event into the biggest mystery of history. The less history is supported by things that can be confirmed and verified and compared, the less certain it is. Go back 1500 years or more and a lot of it gets down to just 'more likely than not' because physical evidence gets scarce and independent corroboration of accounts becomes spotty.

The short version: the historicity of the Civil War isn't really comparable to the historicity of the sun jumping around in the sky a hundred years ago. It's certainly historical that a bunch of people claimed it happened, though.

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There are plenty of eyewitness testimonials that were given from people who were miles away from the incident who attest to seeing it from afar. If you want me to post some of those testimonials I can.

Anyone who stares at the sun long enough will see it move. I notice you keep accusing us of not addressing the issue and you still haven't lifted a finger to explain why astronomers didn't notice the sun moving.

Testimonials have weight in numbers. Bring even 3 eyewitnesses to any court hearing and see how quick a decision is made. And two anti-religious newspapers confirming the miracle the following day is certainly the last thing they wanted to do -- but they did because they became believers after seeing it.

Thanks for bringing up a perfect example of why testimonials shouldn't be trusted on their own, even in numbers. Turns out that thousands of people can look at the same thing without understanding what they're actually seeing. You do know that it's not just atheists who think this story is preposterous, don't you?

You all clearly cannot explain what has been presented to you. There is a common theme between all of your replies; they are all filled with vulgarities and rude comments with no other intelligent arguments - your frustration is showing. How about some REAL arguments guys?

Before you claim we can't explain something, you should debunk the explanations you've been given thus far, shouldn't you? Just ranting that they don't exist either means you're not reading the responses, are too stupid to understand them, or too dishonest to acknowledge them.

First of all, not all events in this world leave behind physical evidence. If I shined a bright light in your face yesterday, there is no physical evidence of it today.

But you're bringing up an example of an event that would leave behind physical evidence. We had photography back then, you know. Astronomers were actually taking pictures of the sun at the time.

 
That point being made, the eyewitness testimonies from thousands of people that didn't know each other unanimously concur that everyone's clothes dried immediately after the incident. There is your physical evidence - though we obviously cannot see that now, so we have the weight of countless testimonials to confirm it, just like we do with any other event handed down to us in history.

They all saw something. Something that they didn't have the education to understand. The sun under atmospheric conditions that seemed to make it safe to look at (it wasn't) and likely to draw attention because it was unusual; and reflexes that cause people's eyes to shift involuntarily when they look at a bright light too long, making whatever bright light they're looking at seem to move around.

Just because people report seeing the same thing doesn't mean they understand what they're looking at. From the top of a tall mountain, the world looks like a big disk, even if a million people are up there. But the world is not actually a big disk, no matter how many people report that being what they saw.

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..Millions of people have seen Criss Angel perform magic.  You can't get many more witnesses than that.  But no rational person thinks he's performing miracles...

When he brings people back to life we might think he really does do miracle stuff..
So far, only a guy called Jesus seemed able to do it..

To Lazarus- "Come on out of there mate"

Reports of supposed holy people bringing the dead back to life occur every year.

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But we're not talking about having a light shone in my face, are we? You're seriously proposing a star whizzing around off its axis. Whereas the counter-proposal is somewhere between delusion and hoax. Given the known propensity for people to lie, exaggerate and/or simply need to believe, multiplied by the also-known desperation for the church - especially the Catholic church - for a good money-spinning headline grabber in order to appear relevant, and then balanced against the sheer impossibility of the story as related... Well, which is more plausible?

The point is not all events in this world leave behind physical evidence. If the sun did something strange, you're not necessarily going to find
 physical evidence the following day.

If the sun does something strange, it's a guarantee that you will find physical evidence the following day. There will be photographs. We watch the sun constantly.

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You obviously haven't read a single testimonial that has been posted. All the testimonials agree that everyone could look straight at the sun during the miracle without it hurting their eyes. Some compared it to looking at an eclipse. No one can explain that either. Read the testimonials posted earlier.

You cannot ever safely look at the sun for a prolonged period without eye protection. During an eclipse, even a sliver of the sun can burn your retinas. In the upcoming complete solar eclipse where I live, it will only be safe to look at the location of the sun in the sky for the couple of minutes it will be completely eclipsed. If you can see the sun at all, you should not stare at it. It's even dangerous through clouds, since UV light gets through...you can get a sunburn on a cloudy day, it just takes longer.

And stop repeating yourself about no one being able to explain it when you refuse to address any of the explanations you've been given.

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Claims are not proof.  And I'm not inclined to believe claims.

But, but...these claims are supported by MORE claims!

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So far I've yet to see anyone disprove what has been presented. Instead I'm just reading "I refuse to believe" against thousands of testimonials from people who didn't know each other.

You're a liar, pabsta. You've been given plenty more than 'I refuse to believe'. I guess we know what YOUR testimony is worth.