Better terminology for "Father and Son" ?

[Godscreated]

I don't think you can really speak for anyone else on this one buddy.  If you absolutely insist that you're some sort of monstrous degenerate who should burn in the fires of hell for all eternity..then so be it.  There's still the issue of the rest of us, who aren't.

Whether the better man is forced or willingly beaten for my crimes, he;s still a scapegoat...and personally, I;m not the sort of degenerate that accepts such an arrangement even if it were offered.  So I guess points to you, on that count.  You really might be as broken as you say you are.

 I was broken, Christ is in the process of rebuilding me daily. Without what He did on our behalf we all would stay broken spiritually and like I said before spiritually is how God deals with us in the end. You can call Him what you want but He chose to do it for you, a gift of eternal enormity.

GC