RE: Does DNA contain digital information?
August 16, 2011 at 3:30 pm
(This post was last modified: August 16, 2011 at 4:23 pm by Anomalocaris.)
You are on a slipery slope where you apply rough, colloquial meanings of the words "information", "real", "delibrate", and "language" to insinuate something when evaluating what you are insinuation requires carful, considered, and applicable meanings of the word.
Yes, DNA as a template is information. But that's true of any non-random arrangement of atoms susceptable to increases in entropy. A mold used to make plastic bottles is a template and container of information how the bottle will be shaped. A pebble embeded in beach sand is information on the shape of the hollow in sand in which it rests.
So the fact that DNA is information in itself does not distinguish it from literally any and everything in the universe. Literally everything in the universe from just above Plank scale to 14 billion light years is information.
Yes, the components of DNA is arranged in a particular way that transmits certain pieces of information. But how two rocks are piled on top of each other is also an arrangement that transmits information. Just as the rocks could be put there as a thoughfully arranged cairn to say something about a the boundaries of hiking path, it could also get there by falling at the distal end of a land slide and say something about the force and composition of the slide.
So any arrangement that transmit information could result from delibration, or it could result from no delibration. And vitally let's not confuse "no delibration" with "random". The two rocks that fell one on top of another at the end of the slide may have done so without any delibration. But that they ended up in this arrangement may be far from random. For example, the big rock on the bottom may have a deeply concave shape to its top, so any smaller rock hitting its top is likely to be trapped there.
So there is no compelling evidence to say DNA's arrangement was the result of any delibration, even if natural selection ensured that those arrangement which survive in nature is far from random.
So is DNA a "real language"? If by "real language" you mean transmission of information that comes after delibration, then no, it is not a real language. There is no delibration. But there is information.
Yes. a precise description of just how the molecule DNA works in a cell would get you a far better start than any inexact and inappropriately evocative analogies like "language":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_biosynthesis
If you must have an analogy, I might offer what I consider to be a slightly better analogy of a master mold or template that undergoes two important processes. One, the master mold is used to make working molds called RNA which are in turn used to make the end products called Proteins in a process called RNA proteain synethesis. Two, by a different process, a sand cast is made from the master mold, and the sad cast is then used to produce an exact duplicate of the master mold in a process called DNA synthesis.
If the master mold is shaped in such a way that the protein its working mold produces is incondusive to the survival of the organism, then the master mold gets greatly diminished chances of being successfully replicated into further copy of itself theoguh DNA synthesis, and eventually all copies of master mold will be destroyed as destruction overtakes the pace of success DNA synthesis.
Sometimes the master mold is changed by gliches in the sand casting process, and a slightly different new master mold is produced. If this new master mold produces working molds that in turn produce superior proteins, then the master mold gets enhanced chances of being successfully replicated into further copy of itself theoguh DNA synthesis, and the numbers of different copies of this master mold will increase in the world.
This is how this master mold natural selection process ensures only very
few of all possible mold configuration survive, and the surviving master mold shapes would seem at a later date to superficial evaluation to be non-random and delibrately configured.
(August 16, 2011 at 10:27 am)CoxRox Wrote: Is the 'template' that DNA creates, 'information'?
Yes, DNA as a template is information. But that's true of any non-random arrangement of atoms susceptable to increases in entropy. A mold used to make plastic bottles is a template and container of information how the bottle will be shaped. A pebble embeded in beach sand is information on the shape of the hollow in sand in which it rests.
So the fact that DNA is information in itself does not distinguish it from literally any and everything in the universe. Literally everything in the universe from just above Plank scale to 14 billion light years is information.
(August 16, 2011 at 10:27 am)CoxRox Wrote: Does Dna operate a real language?
(I'm assuming that 'code' and 'information' are the same thing ie a set of deliberately arranged data conveying a message e.g 'language')??
Yes, the components of DNA is arranged in a particular way that transmits certain pieces of information. But how two rocks are piled on top of each other is also an arrangement that transmits information. Just as the rocks could be put there as a thoughfully arranged cairn to say something about a the boundaries of hiking path, it could also get there by falling at the distal end of a land slide and say something about the force and composition of the slide.
So any arrangement that transmit information could result from delibration, or it could result from no delibration. And vitally let's not confuse "no delibration" with "random". The two rocks that fell one on top of another at the end of the slide may have done so without any delibration. But that they ended up in this arrangement may be far from random. For example, the big rock on the bottom may have a deeply concave shape to its top, so any smaller rock hitting its top is likely to be trapped there.
So there is no compelling evidence to say DNA's arrangement was the result of any delibration, even if natural selection ensured that those arrangement which survive in nature is far from random.
So is DNA a "real language"? If by "real language" you mean transmission of information that comes after delibration, then no, it is not a real language. There is no delibration. But there is information.
(August 16, 2011 at 10:27 am)CoxRox Wrote: I understand that 'analogies' can only work so far, so is it possible to define the 'workings' of Dna in a way that is 'true' (for want of a better word)?
Yes. a precise description of just how the molecule DNA works in a cell would get you a far better start than any inexact and inappropriately evocative analogies like "language":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_replication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_biosynthesis
If you must have an analogy, I might offer what I consider to be a slightly better analogy of a master mold or template that undergoes two important processes. One, the master mold is used to make working molds called RNA which are in turn used to make the end products called Proteins in a process called RNA proteain synethesis. Two, by a different process, a sand cast is made from the master mold, and the sad cast is then used to produce an exact duplicate of the master mold in a process called DNA synthesis.
If the master mold is shaped in such a way that the protein its working mold produces is incondusive to the survival of the organism, then the master mold gets greatly diminished chances of being successfully replicated into further copy of itself theoguh DNA synthesis, and eventually all copies of master mold will be destroyed as destruction overtakes the pace of success DNA synthesis.
Sometimes the master mold is changed by gliches in the sand casting process, and a slightly different new master mold is produced. If this new master mold produces working molds that in turn produce superior proteins, then the master mold gets enhanced chances of being successfully replicated into further copy of itself theoguh DNA synthesis, and the numbers of different copies of this master mold will increase in the world.
This is how this master mold natural selection process ensures only very
few of all possible mold configuration survive, and the surviving master mold shapes would seem at a later date to superficial evaluation to be non-random and delibrately configured.
