RE: Theists - I want to know what you think
May 8, 2018 at 3:44 pm
(This post was last modified: May 8, 2018 at 3:44 pm by Mister Agenda.)
Not a theist and not trying to answer the OP's questions, just chiming in to try to clarify the difference between belief in lack and lack of belief.
I lack belief that you have a $20 bill in your right front pocket. That doesn't mean I believe you don't have a $20 in your right front pocket. It wouldn't be particularly unusual if you did. But if I had to guess, I'd go with no, because there are more ways for there not to be one in your right front pocket than there are for it to be there. Maybe it's in another pocket (maybe even one in all your other pockets but the one I picked). Maybe you don't have pockets. Maybe you don't have a $20. But I'm not claiming you don't, because I don't have enough information to say that. I do have enough information to put the odds less than 50/50, so you could say I believe the odds are less than 50/50; but I still don't believe you don't have the $20. If you do, you could settle the question by pulling the $20 out of your pocket and showing it to me, and if you don't you could show that by emptying your pocket to show it isn't in there.
One of the reasons that many atheists are careful about saying that they believe God doesn't exist when they mean probably doesn't exist, or this God definitely doesn't exist but that God might possibly exist; is that so many theists will jump on 'God doesn't exist' to trot out 'you'd have to be omniscient to know that!' or 'did you search the whole universe before reaching that conclusion?' or 'that's a faith position!'. And then we have to explain, in detail, how we're not taking a position of absolute certainty, it's just that the claim doesn't seem likely enough to convince us.
So then, agnostic atheists or rational skeptics, who largely would say the same thing about any other proposed deity, or leprechauns or Bigfoot for that matter; state their position carefully: we don't believe in the nonexistence of God, we just lack belief that any such being actually does exist, but if you can demonstrate otherwise I'm very interested in seeing whether what you have will stand up to scrutiny.
Full disclosure: I DO believe that the Abrahamic God described in the Bible doesn't really exist, as sure as I'd be about that $20 if I knew you were completely naked; but I have to acknowledge that I can't be so sure about Artemis or the God of deism.
I lack belief that you have a $20 bill in your right front pocket. That doesn't mean I believe you don't have a $20 in your right front pocket. It wouldn't be particularly unusual if you did. But if I had to guess, I'd go with no, because there are more ways for there not to be one in your right front pocket than there are for it to be there. Maybe it's in another pocket (maybe even one in all your other pockets but the one I picked). Maybe you don't have pockets. Maybe you don't have a $20. But I'm not claiming you don't, because I don't have enough information to say that. I do have enough information to put the odds less than 50/50, so you could say I believe the odds are less than 50/50; but I still don't believe you don't have the $20. If you do, you could settle the question by pulling the $20 out of your pocket and showing it to me, and if you don't you could show that by emptying your pocket to show it isn't in there.
One of the reasons that many atheists are careful about saying that they believe God doesn't exist when they mean probably doesn't exist, or this God definitely doesn't exist but that God might possibly exist; is that so many theists will jump on 'God doesn't exist' to trot out 'you'd have to be omniscient to know that!' or 'did you search the whole universe before reaching that conclusion?' or 'that's a faith position!'. And then we have to explain, in detail, how we're not taking a position of absolute certainty, it's just that the claim doesn't seem likely enough to convince us.
So then, agnostic atheists or rational skeptics, who largely would say the same thing about any other proposed deity, or leprechauns or Bigfoot for that matter; state their position carefully: we don't believe in the nonexistence of God, we just lack belief that any such being actually does exist, but if you can demonstrate otherwise I'm very interested in seeing whether what you have will stand up to scrutiny.
Full disclosure: I DO believe that the Abrahamic God described in the Bible doesn't really exist, as sure as I'd be about that $20 if I knew you were completely naked; but I have to acknowledge that I can't be so sure about Artemis or the God of deism.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.