On Hell and Forgiveness

[Catholic_Lady]

Aurora, that is why we are told that we must not negatively judge the state of another person's soul. In Catholicism, we have saints - ie people whom we have officially declared as being in Heaven. But we don't have the opposite. We can't even say Hitler is in Hell. Why? Because of exactly what you wrote. Since we cannot see into a person's mind, we cannot judge their level of culpability. Not when it comes to the state of their soul. So there is some credit to what you wrote, imho.

With that being said, as you know, I am still a believer in free will. I think in probably most cases, or at least some cases, a person's mental illness/experiences/DNA makes them more susceptible to act out in certain ways, but it doesn't completely control them. Even though people with certain inclinations may have a harder time than others in controlling certain wrongful behaviors, at the end of the day, I believe they still have a choice.

There are plenty of people with mental illness who don't harm others, and there are plenty of people who are not mentally ill at all - just selfish. Just selfish and they choose not to better themselves because they don't want to. There are plenty of abuse victims who choose not to lash out and abuse others in return, and instead become advocates.

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Don't you think there are ways of following Christ without consciously knowing you are following Christ?

Isn't that called 'perfect contrition', the loop-hole the Latin church provides for non-Catholics.

For example, Ghandi. He wasn't Christian. But he still lived by the same principles that Jesus advocated. He strived to love others. He valued humility and charity. He strived to live a life of virtue and dignity. I'm sure he probably felt remorse for his wrong doings.

C/L please correct me if I am wrong, being as you are a practicing Catholic, and not an interested outsider such as myself...

The question revolves around whether or not someone believes their actions, in and of themselves, are meritorious. If someone believes he deserves to be in Heaven, apart from Grace, then no, that person will not attain the full blessing of being in the presence of the Lord. That does not mean in the afterlife that such people cannot be happy. Catholic doctrine includes the state of "limbus infantium" for those not redeemed from original sin but who have nevertheless not engaged in a mortal sin.

Limbo was actually never a dogmatic teaching, and was removed from the catechism a while back ago. I gotta admit it was before my time, so I don't know much about it at all except that it's an old school concept that we don't adhere to anymore.

With that being said, I would agree with you that if someone thinks they are entitled to Heaven, there is still pride in their hearts. Since Heaven is the state of perfect grace, I agree that someone with those sentiments isn't there yet. I wasn't trying to imply differently.