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When is a Religious Belief Delusional?
#11
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional?
(August 31, 2018 at 10:48 am)Whateverist Wrote: On the other hand, a believer who recognizes they have insufficient means to convince an intelligent, fair minded third person but chooses to believe anyway for reasons they can articulate is certainly not delusional.

Mazactly.  I point out that my wife has alot of faith but no compelling argument, she points out that I'm never going to convince these cattle rearing necks to dam the hollars and turn kentucky into a semi-submerged aquacultural mecca.  Both of us, nevertheless, persist in our delusions knowingly.  It's good for laughs.  

Whenever I fuck something up I turn towards her and pull a Toro "Did you see what GOD made me do..man!"  -and in return, she's always telling me that I should start a fish cult.  We can both recognize the flaws in each others pet fantasies, and in our own..and it never leads to the silly ass shit (and interactions) we get from amateur apologists on this site.  She doesn't have to imagine that I have demon locks on my heart, or that I'm somehow hopelessly degenerate and that's the origin of my disgust for christer god, or that there's a requirement that I deny some obvious fact of reality, or that I'm incapable of spotting and accepting a good argument..or any of that trash.

I don't have to imagine that she's stupid or crazy.  There are reasonable people who can employ and accept their faith with integrity - and then there's the rest of the lot. The category that any given believer falls into is entirely up to them, theres no compulsion to be deluded asshole, on account of having faith. That's a personal..freely willed™ choice one makes. For some reason...I doubt that "jesus" would approve.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Messages In This Thread
When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 31, 2018 at 10:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Brian37 - August 31, 2018 at 10:05 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - August 31, 2018 at 10:07 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Joods - September 5, 2018 at 4:23 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 5:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 7, 2018 at 5:51 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Joods - September 7, 2018 at 6:12 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 10:08 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by CapnAwesome - August 31, 2018 at 10:33 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by CapnAwesome - August 31, 2018 at 11:16 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2018 at 10:48 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - August 31, 2018 at 11:38 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - August 31, 2018 at 10:49 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2018 at 11:07 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by vorlon13 - August 31, 2018 at 11:18 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 12:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - August 31, 2018 at 2:49 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - August 31, 2018 at 11:52 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - August 31, 2018 at 11:55 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - August 31, 2018 at 12:34 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 12:39 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - August 31, 2018 at 12:48 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - August 31, 2018 at 1:02 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fireball - August 31, 2018 at 10:30 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 2:45 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Cod - August 31, 2018 at 2:54 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 3:36 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by paulpablo - August 31, 2018 at 3:52 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - August 31, 2018 at 4:01 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Nay_Sayer - August 31, 2018 at 5:21 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Mister Agenda - September 4, 2018 at 1:16 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - August 31, 2018 at 9:01 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - August 31, 2018 at 10:11 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - August 31, 2018 at 10:32 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - August 31, 2018 at 10:38 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - September 1, 2018 at 6:59 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 1, 2018 at 8:17 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - September 1, 2018 at 1:21 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 1, 2018 at 1:32 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - September 1, 2018 at 1:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 1, 2018 at 10:25 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 1, 2018 at 5:46 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by brewer - September 1, 2018 at 7:07 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 2, 2018 at 3:19 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 1, 2018 at 4:46 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2018 at 7:45 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 1, 2018 at 5:23 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 1, 2018 at 6:15 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 1, 2018 at 6:49 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Aroura - September 1, 2018 at 6:59 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 1, 2018 at 8:10 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2018 at 8:26 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 1, 2018 at 10:49 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by LastPoet - September 1, 2018 at 8:35 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by vorlon13 - September 1, 2018 at 8:36 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2018 at 8:42 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 1, 2018 at 10:27 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by EgoDeath - September 1, 2018 at 11:02 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by MysticKnight - September 1, 2018 at 11:07 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Homeless Nutter - September 1, 2018 at 11:23 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2018 at 11:27 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 1, 2018 at 12:33 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 1, 2018 at 11:10 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 1, 2018 at 11:30 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Aroura - September 1, 2018 at 12:22 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 1, 2018 at 11:28 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 2, 2018 at 2:10 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 2, 2018 at 12:59 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 2, 2018 at 1:28 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 2, 2018 at 3:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 3, 2018 at 10:35 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 3, 2018 at 11:27 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 4, 2018 at 5:36 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 4, 2018 at 1:42 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 1:49 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 10:36 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2018 at 11:41 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 12:23 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2018 at 12:43 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 12:52 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 12:51 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 12:58 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 3:32 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 11:05 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 11:15 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by MysticKnight - September 2, 2018 at 1:09 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 2, 2018 at 2:06 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by MysticKnight - September 2, 2018 at 2:18 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 2, 2018 at 3:27 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 4, 2018 at 10:56 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by MysticKnight - September 4, 2018 at 10:58 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 4, 2018 at 11:07 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 4, 2018 at 11:18 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by downbeatplumb - September 4, 2018 at 1:38 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 11:18 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by chimp3 - September 2, 2018 at 3:46 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 4, 2018 at 8:03 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by SteveII - September 4, 2018 at 9:46 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 4, 2018 at 11:03 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 4, 2018 at 2:30 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 5, 2018 at 3:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 12:41 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by SteveII - September 4, 2018 at 2:57 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by chimp3 - September 4, 2018 at 9:52 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 5, 2018 at 7:52 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 9:35 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 5, 2018 at 11:50 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 5, 2018 at 11:57 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 12:15 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 12:15 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 5, 2018 at 3:43 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 5, 2018 at 3:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 5, 2018 at 11:58 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 5, 2018 at 12:13 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by LastPoet - September 5, 2018 at 3:36 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 6, 2018 at 8:25 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 2, 2018 at 4:41 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by chimp3 - September 2, 2018 at 4:54 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 2, 2018 at 7:15 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 3, 2018 at 12:19 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 3, 2018 at 6:51 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 2:00 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 4, 2018 at 9:06 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 1:24 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by LastPoet - September 4, 2018 at 2:34 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 4, 2018 at 2:07 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 4, 2018 at 2:41 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 4, 2018 at 3:21 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 4, 2018 at 10:33 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 12:35 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 12:53 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by LastPoet - September 4, 2018 at 12:55 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 12:58 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 4, 2018 at 1:02 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 1:32 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 1:00 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 1:57 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 4, 2018 at 2:13 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 2:14 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 4, 2018 at 1:58 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 2:08 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 4, 2018 at 2:07 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 4, 2018 at 2:17 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 4, 2018 at 2:22 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 4, 2018 at 4:13 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 3:05 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 4, 2018 at 3:28 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 4:43 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 4, 2018 at 5:36 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Bob Kelso - September 4, 2018 at 10:19 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 5, 2018 at 3:20 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 5, 2018 at 11:48 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by downbeatplumb - September 5, 2018 at 1:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Mister Agenda - September 6, 2018 at 2:53 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 6, 2018 at 5:04 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 7, 2018 at 2:50 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 11, 2018 at 3:25 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - September 11, 2018 at 3:36 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 11, 2018 at 4:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 12, 2018 at 9:24 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 12, 2018 at 9:43 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 5, 2018 at 3:42 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 10:13 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by MysticKnight - September 4, 2018 at 5:13 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 4, 2018 at 5:49 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 4, 2018 at 7:04 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by LastPoet - September 5, 2018 at 3:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 5, 2018 at 3:31 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 6:21 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 5, 2018 at 4:16 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 10:04 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 10:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - September 5, 2018 at 10:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 5, 2018 at 10:47 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - September 5, 2018 at 10:48 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 11:00 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - September 5, 2018 at 11:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Pat Mustard - September 5, 2018 at 3:33 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 4:20 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Bob Kelso - September 5, 2018 at 10:09 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 10:30 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 5, 2018 at 10:50 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 10:53 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Silver - September 5, 2018 at 10:55 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 11:03 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Fake Messiah - September 5, 2018 at 11:32 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 5, 2018 at 12:23 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 12:13 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Anomalocaris - September 5, 2018 at 12:29 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 1:44 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 5, 2018 at 3:42 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 4:02 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 5, 2018 at 4:07 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 5, 2018 at 4:14 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Joods - September 5, 2018 at 4:19 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 6, 2018 at 12:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by downbeatplumb - September 6, 2018 at 1:21 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Abaddon_ire - September 5, 2018 at 4:29 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by robvalue - September 6, 2018 at 9:04 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 6, 2018 at 12:45 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 6, 2018 at 12:48 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Minimalist - September 6, 2018 at 5:19 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 6, 2018 at 5:36 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Whateverist - September 6, 2018 at 5:51 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 6, 2018 at 8:32 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 7, 2018 at 5:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 7, 2018 at 5:33 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 7, 2018 at 5:50 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by RoadRunner79 - September 7, 2018 at 5:56 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 7, 2018 at 5:58 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 11, 2018 at 3:40 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Gawdzilla Sama - September 12, 2018 at 6:21 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Neo-Scholastic - September 12, 2018 at 10:55 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 12, 2018 at 11:04 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 12, 2018 at 11:10 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Amarok - September 12, 2018 at 5:37 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by The Grand Nudger - September 12, 2018 at 11:01 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by The Grand Nudger - September 12, 2018 at 11:14 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 12, 2018 at 11:35 am
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by polymath257 - September 12, 2018 at 12:43 pm
RE: When is a Religious Belief Delusional? - by Angrboda - September 12, 2018 at 5:52 pm

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