On Hell and Forgiveness

[polymath257]

Read Livy (the history of Rome) for any number of remarkable claims and corresponding messages from the Gods.

Special pleading concerning 'contingency' is just another aspect of confabulation. To exist *means* to be in the universe. Garden gnomes cannot be detected by ordinary science because of their magical abilities.

Again, firm belief in a delusion isn't evidence of the truth of that delusion. Most of those in the first 500 years had NOTHING to do with the original evidence. Even the *legend* of the resurrection should be held at least as skeptically as the *legend* that the god Pan lead Caesar across the Rubicon.

Livy? Was he making claims about things of which he had personal knowledge? No. So...you don't have a comparison to the 27 books of the NT. You have only proved my point that you don't know what you are talking about in your offhand dismissal of the NT. 

"To exist *means to be in the universe" ??? Really? That is a metaphysical claim that you can not know anything about. 

If garden gnomes have magical abilities, you are positing contingent/emergent magical properties that the universe somehow caused but are not bound by the universe's laws. Science says that is impossible. Your own worldview says that is impossible. Why would I take seriously an impossible analogy? No offence, but between this and the "exists" comment, you don't seem to be equipped to argue metaphysical concepts. 

Your last paragraph is just filled with assertions and proof that you don't know anything about the NT or early church history. It is a fitting end to your series of missteps in support of your 'delusion' argument.

On the contrary, the books of the NT were *not* written by eye-witnesses. Except for some writings attributed to Paul (but not all of them!), we have little knowledge of who actually wrote the texts. They were certainly not written by the attributed authors. So, no, they did not have personal knowledge. They were reporting what others said.

Let's ask the question: what does it mean to 'exist'? Give me an answer to *that* and we can then define the 'universe' and only then deal with your question.

How exactly does science say that contingent magical beings are impossible? What, precisely, is the role of contingency here?

My position is that any talk about contingency is a red-herring. It isn't something science actually *ever* deals with.

And my knowledge of the first 500 years of the Bible is decent (but certainly not perfect).  I stand by what I said until you can give specific reasons to think otherwise.