(September 19, 2011 at 3:59 pm)ElDinero Wrote:The so-called self-loathing approach is just an appreciation of my sinful nature. I have the same value as any other person, and so do you and so does the beggar in the street. The Bible states clearly that God is not a respecter of a person (his/her value is not tied to their standing in society/their ethnicity etc.) To appreciate this you may consider that Christ died for us while we were still sinners.(September 19, 2011 at 3:14 pm)Carnavon Wrote: Will atheists make it into heaven? All I was saying is that we are all deserving of eternal damnation and no "good works" can change that. We are all imperfect.
If an atheist is convinced in his/her heart of his/her own sinfulness and realise that their only hope of being made right with God is through the blood of Jesus Christ, repent, and make Jesus Lord of their lives, then they will be saved. Based on their lives, they deserve hell - as we all do.
The question remains what you use as guideline on which is "better". Why?
I accept the Bible as the Word of God in which He gives me guidelines for my life. I am going out on a bit of a limb here, but it seems to me that morality cannot be "legislated". It is a state of the heart. The purpose of the law in the Bible (e.g Ten Commandments) is to reveal sin and not to make us holy. Human judgement is very subjective and as the Bible states "the heart is deceitful above all things". You will also know that sometimes even our best actions may be questioned whether it is our own ego's that we want to bolster or is it for the better for the suposed "beneficiary" of our actions.
Have a great day ( here in RSA, it is now night time)
Firstly, I find this self-loathing approach of yours really weird and sad. You're saying that over the course of our natural lives, we will all do things that warrant being tortured for eternity - do you honestly believe that? I agree of course that we all do things we shouldn't, but does the punishment fit the crime? I don't think I've ever done anything bad enough to warrant that. Have you?
You do not use the Bible as your source of morality, no matter what you claim. I am almost certain of it. If you do, then perhaps you would deserve eternal torture.
You are suggesting that some sins are so "acceptable" that eternal damnation would be too serious a punishment? This is possibly ignoring the seriousness of any sin and the holiness of God. If you were to consider Jesus' statement that for instance even looking at a woman (man) with lust, you have already committed adultery in your heart.
You consider that the two of us should go "scottfree" because we have not really done some serious wrongs? Only the really bad guys should be damned? Who are we to judge? Can I condemn you because I consider your sins more serious than mine? What do we use as standard - what you, I or society deem unseemly at a certain place in history?
Yes, I use the Bible to remind me of what the life of a Christian should be like - and this is summarised by
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
As a further reminder of the standard:
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
You would agree that these are fine standards and consider how many times we transgress this?
I agree, if I use Gods commandments as standard, I am done for. That is the purpose why Jesus came and died for our sins - so those that accept Him can have eternal life and not suffer the punishment due to them.
The offer stands.