Quote:Jörmungandr said:
1) Even if that were true, it would be your opinion, not the word of God, and we'd be right back where we started from
Not my opinion, literally -and by literally I mean literally- all Muslims believe that the Quran is the original revelation revealed from God to prophet Mohammed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
Quote:Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril),[6][7] gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE,[8] when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death.
This is a very well known fact. What I'm doing, is that I say "follow the revelation only". The rest of Muslims -in large numbers- prefer the Sunni/Shiite methods of belief that use other books as "extras" to facilitate the claimed "hidden meanings" of the Quran.
We didn't return to where we started. Actually it looks to me that the start line is so different for each of us.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:
2) But it's an opinion which isn't supported by the text. It's nothing more than an assertion of what you want to believe, rather than evidence of what you should believe. The fact is that the Quran says more than what you quoted and that something more indicates that you are wrong in claiming that this is all that following the example of Mohammed meant (and the verse you quoted says nothing about forged books).
If it says more, I would quote it, especially with my constant emphasis on the context of each verse I quote.
Here's a verse about forging books and claim that they are holy -like the Hadith-:
Quote:https://quran.com/2/75-85The context is very obvious if you read 10 or 15 verses before. The link is up there; you can use it to browse the whole Quran.
Sura 2, The Quran:
Mufti Taqi Usmani
(78) And some among them are illiterate who have no knowledge of the Book, but have some fancies and do nothing but conjecture.
(79) So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah”, so that they may gain thereby a trifling price. Then, woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.
I just quoted what is evident to my opinion, but the context is also 100% valid. If it's not; I won't quote.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:
3)The statement you quote states that certain things are included and right for followers to consider but it does not say that the list given is exclusive in that it is a complete list of what followers should follow. Other parts of the Quran add to that list, and implicitly reference the hadith. I must also ask if you seriously believe that Mohammed's conduct is not a certain guide to appropriate and divinely inspired conduct, then does that criticism not extend to the things he says, including his claims about what was revealed to him by the archangel Gabriel?
I will use a famous example used by Muslims who believe in the Hadith:
Q/ "How do we know how to pray?"
The list of commands given in the Quran involve practicing "the prayer", but how do we pray?
Here's where the Hadith comes to the rescue: it has tremendous details on how the prayer should be carried out.
My answer can be represented with these verses on the prayer -this is just an example-:
1)The times we should pray at:
Quote:Mufti Taqi Usmani
https://quran.com/17/78?translations=
(17:48) (O Prophet,) establish Salāh between the decline of the sun and the darkness of the night, and (establish) the recital at dawn. Surely, the recital at dawn is well attended.
Rituals we should do before praying:
Quote:Mufti Taqi UsmaniWhat should we do exactly:
https://quran.com/5/6?translations=
(5:6) O you who believe, when you rise for Salāh, (prayer) wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and make MasH (wiping by hands) of your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. If you are in a state of major impurity, cleanse yourselves well (by taking bath). If you are sick, or on a journey, or if one of you has come after relieving himself, or you have had sexual contact with women, and you find no water, then, go for some clean dust and wipe your faces and hands with it. Allah does not like to impose a problem on you; He, rather likes to cleanse you and to complete His favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.
Quote:prayer
prɛː/
noun
noun: prayer; plural noun: prayers
a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity.
"I'll say a prayer for him"
synonyms:
invocation, intercession, devotion;
archaicorison
"she stood in the chapel listening to the priest's murmured prayers"
- a religious service, especially a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.
"500 people were detained as they attended Friday prayers"
The problem is that people always want more. The Quran alone is not enough for them; God's word is not complete according to the Sunni/Shiite institutions.
So they believe that God didn't show people how to pray, but showed the way to Mohammed and the early Muslims only.
The Quran is not referencing the Hadith implicitly; rather many Muslims see the Quran as an "obsolete" book that needs Hadiths to furthermore explain it.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:
4) Where do you draw the line at what is and isn't divinely inspired? You seem to want to arbitrarily draw the line at a point which accords with what you believe, but that's not a rational argument for drawing the line there. You need to either abandon the Quran, or accept the Quran completely, which means as a result also following the hadith. There is no middle ground where belief in the Quran is justified but belief in the hadith is not.
If the book I read is perfectly describing the design of the universe, and corresponds to every meaning I know of perfection and supremacy, then that's my line.
A God must be perfect. That perfection is not sitting on a golden throne or walking on water; but that perfection and supremacy is creating the universe, being above the barrier of time, being everywhere, and most importantly: be above anthropomorphism.
Unlike most religions -if not all-, the Quran bans anthropomorphism in so many spots, that forms the biggest line between what is true and not true for me: an all capable God must have my respect first, and any entity with human attributes do not deserve my worship or loyalty. All other religions I know of (except Judaism) disrespect its own lord by picturing him.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:
5)Note that Surah 25.54 says to obey both Allah and obey the messenger.
But how do I obey a dead man? He won't be around to confirm that he said what is claimed to be said by him (aka Hadith).
Moreover, the Hadith is the responsibility of its writer and his methods of classification; not on Mohammed peace be upon him.
The prophet was long dead after the Hadith; so how would I obey the dead?
But God's orders in situations like these can be found in this verse:
Quote:https://quran.com/42/10?translations=29
Mufti Taqi Usmani
(42:10) And (Say O prophet to your opponents,) “Whatever dispute you have in any matter, its judgment lies with Allah. That One is Allah, the Lord of mine; in Him alone I have placed my trust, and to Him alone I turn (in every matter).”
So it's innate capacity to assume that God never dies; so when the prophet is alive we obey him, but if dies how are we going to ask him?
We should always ask God, always. If the prophet is alive, then we should listen to him too.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:No, it's the word of the author of the Hadith book, and the chain of narrators he used. Mohammed is just claimed to be who said it.
6)The Quran is the word of God. Likewise, the hadith are the word of Mohammed.
Quote:Jörmungandr said:
Even the verse you quoted states that Mohammed believed in his messengers, such as Jesus Christ. Are you saying the words and acts of Jesus are not proper things for a Muslim to follow (providing the record of them is not corrupt)? If we are to follow the uncorrupted word of Jesus, why not the uncorrupted words of Mohammed
Mohammed -peace be upon him- is the last in a chain of prophets that included Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah...etc.
Regarding the following of the book, the reason is stated here:
Quote:https://quran.com/5/48?translations=84
Sahih International
(5:48) And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
What is the evidence that what's in modern day bible, is not mere "desires against the truth"; aka forgeries like the Hadith or what the Roman empire did to the bible?
The real authentic word of Jesus -peace be upon him- won't differ a lot from the message of Islam.
Quote:The only thing you can claim is that you have more reason to believe the words transmitted via the Quran than those transmitted via the hadith. Perhaps that is true, and it would be a matter of judgement of how to blend the hadith into the Quran, but it would not exclude the hadith entirely - that would be being inconsistent and acting contrary to the clear message of the Quran. So, it seems that you and other Quran-only reformers are the true infidels, not those that follow the hadith. Those who incorporate the hadith do so with deference to the Quran, but they don't ignore the hadith. Their belief is more consistent with the Quran than yours is.
I trust that I followed the best book available; and nothing is better than a speech directed to humanity from a God worthy of being the creator of the universe.
Sticking to 1 book is better than being lost between thousands of text that cannot be trusted.
