On Hell and Forgiveness

[SteveII]

Mercy and forgiveness are not essential attributes of God. They are expressions of Love. Justice and Holiness seem to be inviolable standards.

God can’t change his own standards?  That’s beside the point, anyway. What is perfect justice?  How does god decide what is just?

The point is that God does not decide what is just. His nature is perfect justice and all actions are governed by that characteristic. I have no idea what perfect justice is. All we can do is piece things together based on what we know God is like through what he has revealed in the Bible and through Jesus. 

It’s not so much an objection as a point. My point is that on the one hand, god’s message in life is absolutely, undeniably crystal clear, and yet on the other hand, there does seem to be some potential other, clearer mechanism he could use to reveal himself to us. My follow up question to this point is, why?  For what reason did god design levels of clarity? Why doesn’t he reveal himself in the clearest way possible to everyone on the planet right now?  What is his rationale?

Because a choice to choose God is a process that needs to have sincere roots.

Why?  Why does it need be a process?  What’s the reason?

There are verses that explain that God will prepare your heart for belief it you are receptive. Like I said before, it could be an experience, another person, circumstances in your life, etc. that get you to that point.  An advertisement in the sky would seem to undercut that part of the process/purpose.

You mean it would undercut the dramatic tension of the story, lol.  Look, if god’s ultimate goal and desire is to save as many souls as possible, then the only logical action for him to take is the one that would most efficiently and definitively secure that goal.  Obviously, that would be to show himself before the entire world right now; an action which he is perfectly capable of.  For god to take any action less straightforward than that would be in direct opposition of his expressed goal and desire. Creating some slow, lifelong test riddled with obstacles is about as logical as Dr. Evil locking Austin Powers in a fish tank, hidden behind a curtain, to be slowly killed by sharks with frickin’ laser beams. 

I heard a good example this week. For three years people followed Jesus around watching him do miracles. Thousands of people saw and even more heard. In 1 Cor 15:6, we hear that there were more than 500 people that actually saw him alive following his crucifixion. In Acts 2, there were only 120 that believed enough to be wait in Jerusalem as Jesus had told them to do. The point is that being shown miracles, signs, and even the ontological argument, does not get a person's heart to the right place to meet God. It is almost always a process. 

If we are uniquely designed for a physical existence, why is that physical existence finite? What is the reason for first, a finite existence, and then an infinite one? What logical reason is there for the construction of phases of life, and why such a disparity in their lengths? The whole thing reeks of a massive contrivance for the purposes of getting people to behave.

People have to be created. A certain amount of people will choose evil over good, themselves over God. Do you think that this earthly existence is not sufficient to choose God (some their whole lives)? Not to do many wonderful things for his glory? Not to live and experience a huge range of human experiences that shape who we are?

You didn’t answer a single one of my questions above.

A choice to choose God is necessarily finite because our entire universe is finite (and will die some day).  Our bodies break down and die. You seem to think that the relative brevity of life should have been longer. Why?

Oh, come on now, Steve.  Don’t be obtuse.  If our consciousness continues infinitely beyond our physical death, then our ability to make choices is obviously also infinite.  God is the one inserting arbitrary restrictions and ultimatums here. Why is that?

Can a disembodied soul make choices? There are no inputs or outputs. Seem to me the chance for reflection, change of heart, and a life with God have passed when you die. It seems your objection has no reasons other than to be difficult. 

Jesus' atonement is what wipes the slate clean. Are you saying the people should be forced to allow Jesus to take their place to pay for their sins? You would totally remove any sense of contrition, desire to stop, consequences, even awareness of our condition.  THAT does not make sense.

Why does god need Jesus to wipe our slate clean?  I notice you’re answering a lot of questions with questions.  I’m merely trying to get to the logical rationale behind these pillars of the Christian faith.

Forgiveness is not the same as atonement. I can forgive a murderer for killing my brother. I can't take away the consequences. Atonement takes away the consequences. It would be like Jesus literally sitting through the trial, taking on the humility of facing the victims, then prison and then the death penalty and the actual murderer going free. Obviously, forgiveness alone does nothing to satisfy the demand for justice.