On Hell and Forgiveness

[Angrboda]

@Steve:

There's a Vikings football game tonight, and between that and other matters, I doubt I will get around to replying to your latest replies tonight.

In the absence of such, I'll simply make two quick notes. First, my hypothetical about God appearing to the world was a straightforward POE argument, not simply "if I were God." Any response to it then needs to be on those terms. Second, you still do not seem to understand either that the question of there being an objective basis for greater than judgements is not an epistemological problem, as well as providing no objective basis for your belief that such things as what a conscious being would find preferable are not subjective criteria. Where things become epistemological is that lacking an argument for an objective basis of any of these preferences, you could equally as effectively disprove my claim that there are no objective greater than relationships by providing one counter-example. Then it does become an epistemological as well as a practical question. As of yet, you haven't provided any that appear to withstand scrutiny. You assert that certain things are greater than other things, but beyond the assertion, you haven't given any reason supporting your assertion. Assertions by themselves are not sufficient.

As to the God that kills babies, both you and Neo seem to be misunderstanding my intent. I'm not in any way suggesting that Yahweh kills babies for no reason. In fact, just the opposite. I am conceding that Yahweh does not do this, ex hypothesi. The challenge is to provide an objective basis for saying that Yahweh is greater than a God that does. In order to do that, you need to do (at least) two things. First, show that it is objectively wrong to kill babies for no reason, and my god is therefore immoral, and second, that being moral is objectively greater than not being moral. In the absence of either of those, you've failed to show that Yahweh is greater than the god who kills babies for no reason. I haven't fully thought it through, but upon first glance, any attempt to argue that morality has an objective basis because God is objectively moral would seem to be circular and begging the question. (I think, anyway. If you disagree, then we can discuss it.)

Anyway, I'll try to respond more fully, especially concerning why your counter-examples of great-making properties don't, at another time. In the meantime, I'll just offer the following for your consideration. In seeking to establish that something has an objective basis, it seems a misstep to appeal to what a conscious being would want, as that appears to lead you into subjectivity. To properly demonstrate that this is greater than that, you would need to show that the sun, the moon, and the stars would rather that any god have this rather than that. However, since the sun, the moon, and the stars have neither wants nor preferences, proving that would seem impossible.

Anyway, until then.