RE: Atheists who announce "I'm good without god"
October 3, 2018 at 9:52 pm
(This post was last modified: October 3, 2018 at 9:52 pm by polymath257.)
Let me give a couple other examples that may clarify the issues.
When people look at clouds, we see faces. This is something that happens to pretty much everyone. It is almost certainly a genetic thing to see faces whenever possible, even when they aren't appropriate.
Are faces in clouds objective or subjective? Well, everyone sees faces in clouds. People can even agree that certain clouds look like certain types of faces. it is an objective fact that people see faces in clouds. But clouds do not, objectively, have faces. They are masses of water vapor and simply don't actually have faces.
As another example, people generally agree that certain pieces of art are beautiful. Every culture has art and different cultures can appreciate the art of other cultures. Does that make the beauty of art objective? Even if people agree that a certain piece is beautiful, does that make it *objectively* beautiful? Is artistic beauty an objective or a subjective thing?
In both cases, everyone experiences a phenomenon. The phenomenon of art is even valued by most people. But that *doesn't* make either faces in clouds or artistic beauty an objective thing. Both are subjective. But that doesn't make art,, for example, less important. If anything, it is its very subjectivity that makes it so important.
In the same way, almost everyone has a moral sense. Fairness and compassion are aspects of this common moral sense. But the fact that it is common to all does NOT mean it is objective. It just means we have common subjective experiences. Further, the subjectivity does NOT make it less important or valuable to us or our societies. If anything, it makes it more important.
But, just like faces in clouds or artistic beauty, there is NOTHING inherent in the real world that dictates the subjective experiences we have no matter how important or meaningful. These are not objective things, but are very much subjective things, although common to almost all people.
And, in the case of art, the richness of our lives is enhanced by this. And, for morality, the structures of our societies and our lives benefit from having the twin moral guides of fairness and compassion.
When people look at clouds, we see faces. This is something that happens to pretty much everyone. It is almost certainly a genetic thing to see faces whenever possible, even when they aren't appropriate.
Are faces in clouds objective or subjective? Well, everyone sees faces in clouds. People can even agree that certain clouds look like certain types of faces. it is an objective fact that people see faces in clouds. But clouds do not, objectively, have faces. They are masses of water vapor and simply don't actually have faces.
As another example, people generally agree that certain pieces of art are beautiful. Every culture has art and different cultures can appreciate the art of other cultures. Does that make the beauty of art objective? Even if people agree that a certain piece is beautiful, does that make it *objectively* beautiful? Is artistic beauty an objective or a subjective thing?
In both cases, everyone experiences a phenomenon. The phenomenon of art is even valued by most people. But that *doesn't* make either faces in clouds or artistic beauty an objective thing. Both are subjective. But that doesn't make art,, for example, less important. If anything, it is its very subjectivity that makes it so important.
In the same way, almost everyone has a moral sense. Fairness and compassion are aspects of this common moral sense. But the fact that it is common to all does NOT mean it is objective. It just means we have common subjective experiences. Further, the subjectivity does NOT make it less important or valuable to us or our societies. If anything, it makes it more important.
But, just like faces in clouds or artistic beauty, there is NOTHING inherent in the real world that dictates the subjective experiences we have no matter how important or meaningful. These are not objective things, but are very much subjective things, although common to almost all people.
And, in the case of art, the richness of our lives is enhanced by this. And, for morality, the structures of our societies and our lives benefit from having the twin moral guides of fairness and compassion.
