On Hell and Forgiveness

[GrandizerII]

An effect that involves fear of suffering. You went back a few verses to look for the words you wanted, but how about you try to translate Mark 14:36 in light of your interpretation that it was just sorrow. Was Jesus simply just too sorrowful to want to suffer for humankind?

"Oh, I'm not scared or anything, but it gives me much sorrow to have to suffer for others!"

Yeah, right. How about you check this quote from John Calvin on this passage:



That's mainstream Christian teaching, Steve. It's not my personal interpretation. You think you have it all figured out, do you?

If Jesus showed fear, then this means fear and consequently bravery becomes relevant when it comes to God's "great-making" properties. Since your God saw it fit to experience various weaknesses in human flesh, all these weaknesses should become a matter of consideration in deciding what makes for divine greatness. You can no longer argue that your God does not experience fear if he can indeed do so (according to your favorite book).

Wait, you think that God the Son, through which all of creation came into existence, feared physical pain? I would agree that his human nature did not want to endure the actual pain of the cross, but the mind of Jesus was divine and therefore not susceptible to human fear. Jorm was right, it is about your particular Christology. You are just winging it--not that it lines up with some framework you have thought out. 

In fact, all your bluster about "mainstream Christian teaching" is an empty claim when you cannot even correctly characterize what Jesus was facing (as you said: "scared"). He was facing having the entire sins of the world (of all times) put on his shoulders. Because of his divine nature, he was very clear on what that meant--even as we cannot fathom what that means. In fact, the weight of that killed his human nature before the cross could. So, you tell me...IF Jesus knew that having the sins of the world put on his shoulders would kill him before some pretty barbaric physical torture could, what do you think was more on his mind in the garden? 

It doesn't matter what he really feared. What matters for my point is that he experienced fear and other human weaknesses. I'm glad, by the way, that you've backtracked a little to concede that Jesus did experience fear according to the Bible.

But anyway, I'm well aware that you Christians have been conditioned to spiritualize almost everything that happened with Jesus, including this account of the Garden of Gethsemane. It's not like I've never attended sermons by Christian pastors elaborating on passages such as this, or done some Bible study sessions. So whatever, I'm all too happy to grant you that Jesus feared spiritual suffering, even if taken literally, the passage implies that he feared physical suffering.

But whatever it may be, he still experienced fear. That's all the point I'm trying to make here. Again, if your god is somehow able to experience human weakness via incarnation, then that's a problem for your argument that bravery cannot be considered a viable candidate for one of the great-making property for your god. Somehow, your god is able to be "beyond divine" by experiencing human weakness. How? No idea. But if he can experience fear, than bravery is something that can be applied to him as well.

Of course, theologians don't call the Christian God "brave", but we're not just doing theology here. If there's fear, then there's potential for bravery or courage or whatever you want to call it.

The real point to be made, though, is what others have argued earlier. That you're simply picking and choosing what goes into the set of great-making properties for the divine and what doesn't.