How to discuss religion with believers?

[Scientia]

Long reply inc. I numbered your points for ease:

@ Drich

1) it is funny to me that most people will acknowledge the 'thought and observation put into the first 1/2' but discard the idea that the same objectivity went into the second half just because I did not come to the same conclusion as you did. To you.. it is impossible That I found something you didn't..

To me it is not impossible, but if all you people keep giving me is banther without one ounce of evidence, it remains a tale. A tale as worthy to be believed as that found in a fantasy book. What puzzles me is that you(in general, not you specifically) claim to have found the truth, or god, or name it however you want but when asked how the process works, it is as vague as synthetizing anti-matter. "Embrace god", "trust in Christ", "open yourself to him", "accept all the shit you are thrown at", etc. None of these can be reproducibly or reliably recognized or detected at all. You can convince yourself it is because of this, but that's just gut feeling. But stating with certainty that you found it and it is as it is, it's rather bold.

2) To whom do you speak that religion filled these roles? these seem like trivial cursory observation leading to the idea that people are generally stupid and they seek anything to pacify the above mention needs.. If you did read my first 1/2 you will note I argue the opposite. the above mention while are indeed on some people radar the vast majority are not stupid and do indeed seek the truth otherwise we would not have religion ever die. because the above mention are all things can be self full filling meaning no real outside influences are needed to feel any one of those things. Again understand people believe in religion because something whether it be fellow man government society demons or God fuels external fulfillment in one way or another.. The religion full fill it's promises, or it is doomed to die!

It is foolish to think your fellow man just overly needy and can't discern truth. Granted most religious promises are based around what whatever fuels the religion. meaning if society is the religious fuel then by society's over all involvement the promises of said religion are generally kept. and so on. However when it comes to things like direct contact with God few would argue that society has the power to manifest such a promise. That is the case with Christianity. Direct contact with God is the reward of the faithful.

No, people are not necessarily stupid, but they may be lazy or just don't want to know. My uncle is the most erudite person I know and he's christian, but I can see where he stopped. He doesn't question his religion/god anymore. I asked him why, the reply was "at my age, what's the point of further looking into it? It was the answer I sought and the answer I got. You can't really reason it out, at some point you have to make a leap of faith. You are too annoying and inquisitive to make that leap, but it won't really matter at the end, you are a good guy". He's old now, life was different at his time, but the main difference between us is that I keep researching and investigating while he stopped at the first assumed truth. It may be the actual truth in the end, but how do you know already at this point in time without further research?


Also, you talk about direct contact with God. Perhaps it would be useful for you to read my answers to Godscreated, as they cover this. I'll copypaste some line to save you time:

How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up? I've already tried that and nothing happened. Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either. Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

If the bible is an instruction book, then it's badly written. Everything can be interpreted in many ways, it's more like a puzzle with no solution (or many solutions).

3) because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

As above.

4) Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.


Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.

Don't put words in my mouth. I am asking you of the reasons(evidence) that make you so certain and confident that what's written in this book is the truth, and you fail to deliver this reason/evidence. If you asked me "what makes you so confident that the gravitational constant is 9.81 m/s2?" then I would tell you that I made an experiment throwing an object and its motion behaved according to that number. I would also go on and make you notice that planes fly based on that number as wel and that this number works every time without exception. I would also add that all my confidence is based on the reality I perceive as this is the only thing I have (and I guess it's also the only thing you have and see). If we want to question even this perception of reality, speculating that maybe I am insane and I am imagining all of this inside a white room, then even solipsism is invited to the party. 


But what did you give me in return beside your tale? When you people ask for science proof, I have no problem in providing you the source and the means to read paid journals, but when I ask you how you confirm your beliefs, what I get is "I embraced it, trusted it, and it helped me push forward and I know I will be rewarded in the eternal afterlife or be happy serving him". How did he help you? Did he whisper in your ear? Did he materialize in front you (or if not him personally, perhaps an angel? Or maybe under the form of an animal or old man or a cloud or whatever)? Or if you didn't see anything, did you hear his whisper in your head? A voice? A recurring dream? How? And how did you confirm it was him? Did you ask him? And if he/she/it replied positively, how can you trust it unconditionally?

None of you ever answers this. It's always left vague, general, in the clouds. There is no way to understand what you guys mean when you speak in such vague terms. You are talking about the nothingness in my eyes, so please try to be clearer if you can. Try to correct my view, if it is indeed incorrect. Everytime I get replies as if I was provoking you guys. I'm sincerely asking to be convinced of it, if you have found some proof or evidence that I overlooked. And if you haven't, please don't reply again in vague terms. At least say something along the lines "we do not possess scientific evidence as you mean it in this phisical reality, so we can't prove it to you that way". That answer would already tick out one box so I could move to the next step. But here I am left waiting for some evidence that is mentioned, allluded, hinted but never fully fledged out and described.

5) Because you  have no idea what my life was, before hand. I was the polar opposite.

Addressed in the following

6) and do you think you could have earn the very same thing/earned the same position you had in life if say you could not read? what if basic math alluded you? then find God and it is like someone turn on a switch, and you go from a forrest gump floor sweep to a mechanic to a business owner to a franchised business owner to a engineer to a patent holder who's sold their work to a big company, and took what was made and double down the the business into nationally recognized business (in my field of course).. Did I also mention I have always spent the vast majority of my time studying the bible and answering questions here? that deals simply drop into our lap. we do not market we do not advertise beyond a single car trader type of magazine. I have not worked hard/I do not work hard, I have in the past, I have no real business training. And I got started with a 25K loan from a stranger who felt compelled to help me go out on my own, because he said he could see something in me. that I spend the lions share of my time here answering questions? As if the business was given to me to support what I do here and in places like this..

No, of course I wouldn't have if I were blind. But then it wouldn't be me. What switch are you talking about? What you are saying sounds like "if you believe in god, then you'll manage to surpass your limits". Are you saying that embracing god is enough to trigger some "miracle" in life? That perhaps someone without legs will be able to levitate if he believes in god? 


You know, my cousin converted to christianity because of an episode of his life. He was a lawyer, rich, successful, never believed in anything despite his family being heavily christian and always overindulged himself with food and was huge. Then he had a stroke and his heart almost stopped. The doctors operated him  and he recovered. Since that episode he converted to christianity, saying how he felt this was a 2nd chance from above to stop being a pig and how he'd devote himself to god from that day on. The actual fact however, is that his condition wasn't as bad as he thought and the doctors simply performed a normal operation with a great chance of success. Would you define this as a miracle? I would define this as "statistics".

Then you have my auntie, a heavy smoker who was super christian since forever. Very kind and nice with everyone, a golden person who loved life, very generous. Someone who went through divorce because she donated all her savings to help the poor (in disagreement with my uncle). Guess what happened? Her lungs just stopped working. 

And then there is you and I personally don't see how what's special with your tale exactly. Yours just looks like a... life. Harder than some, better than some other (from my pov as a "happiness economist"). One of the many possible combinations. Just like my cousin's, just like my auntie's, just like mine. 

But again, those are irrelevant details to me. What puzzles me is how you are so confident and certain that the god described in that book is the truth?. Are you sure your life evolved like it did because of God? Or did it evolve like that because of your "convinction" of god's existence? A sort of placebo effect? Or autosuggestion? There are psychology therapies where they make you repeat phrases such as "I am a talented person", "I am not worse than others", "I am not stupid" to build up confidence. How are you certain that you achieved what you did because of god and not because of autosuggestion or one of those confidence build-up techniques?

7) I was the latter I was born to a korean mother and 1/2 a drunk red neck. who would randomly pull me out of bed by my foot and make me rake the yard at 2AM in the complete dark because it did not 'feel like it had been done.' or wash a car or clean the windows or just to take a beating because of my report card was not good enough (he being a teacher in the same school district and me failing retard classes made him look bad. Should have been there for my 'Reading lessons.' Stuff like that and being molested by a few different people got me to the point where I hated god, so just before high school and all though it even a little after I hated the idea of God and even sought out to beat the shte out of people who brought their bibles to school.

 I was mad at them for believing in a god who would allow me to get beat up everyday by one group of people or another everyday. I fought everyday of my school life till one day I was DDT-ed so hard into the pavement it knocked me out for a few mins, and I did not rat out the white racist who did it. Then I was ok with the whites. beating the christians made me ok with the emo/dracula club. but there were still a few whites and blacks who just rando attacked me.. so I hid most of the day not going to class because they would wait for me. my Ag. teacher had comic books from the 60 and 70 in the back office and he would let me hide out and read them/learn teach myself how to read off the pictures and actions on page. I could read only comic books when I graduated because I could visualize what was being said. then a year or two later I was given my first bible. and it was like someone turning on a light switch. it was the first time I could read without pictures. and for a long time after it was the only thing I could read without pictures. Even now I struggle with spelling and grammar because I am still learning as I go.

The only limits of man are the ones that man places upon himself.

Typically we build up confidence by scoring a success, and lose confidence by failing. How many failures one can endure before breaking change from person to person. Being brought up in an environment that is not healthy for the development of self-confidence surely doesn't help the cause. Having to deal with a strict father and being continuously compared to others can also be detrimental to the development of self-confidence where no base is present. Having expectations loaded on your back builds up even more pressure. 

Please try to remember: what were the books that you couldn't read without pictures? I guess school textbooks or any book that, once read, should have made you "functional" in that specific discipline/skill. If you were brought up in an environment where you were convinced of being a retard and where everything seemed to confirm that, you'd eventually accept that as a fact. Therefore the idea of understanding any book that was supposed to teach you some skill would already be rejected by your brain a priori. What's special about comic books and the bible? You weren't expected anything out of them. The former were used as a training dummy, it didn't matter whether you understood them or not, and you despised the latter and hate is a good fuel. Turns out you weren't retarded. You never were at any point most likely. Struggling with grammar and spelling is not as uncommon as you may think. Also keep in mind that shitty teachers with shitty textbooks wouldn't be able to teach anything even to Einstein or Hawking. 

8) It doesn't matter to you because to you the end result is what you would consider 'good.' I'm not talking about my success found in my business or the patents or the time I send here teaching. My success was defined by my journey. from my beginnings to where I am now, itis the stuff that happened in between.. Me finding out on my honey moon my wife had a 250$ a day heroin addiction and the 7 years we spent in the detox of hell, while at the same time just starting a business all the endless nights of work then paper work then taxes then her stuff. then mix in a Aids scare and a cancer scare (test procedures bone marrow scans the whole nine yards) and through all of that at some point my appendix burst.. but while having the cancer scan they said the appendix had burst some time back and was now dormant. did I mention I had no insurance most of this, and it was just 'taken care of' anonymously. a check just showed up from some fund with a authorization number instead of a signature.

You are the first one who criticizes me for the opposite reason. Most people around me say that I never look like I care about my achievements or decent life, even though I should take great joy and pride like they would. They also said that they'd rather expect such attitude from someone who is in a hopeless situation and where "not caring" is the only solution to go numb and not feel pain. You on the other hand seem to have followed a different path in general. More on the follow up chap:

9) I did not follow god and good things happened. I followed god and my life fell apart, and I continued looking for truth and I had to give up everything I owned. (my dad found out i was staying with my uncle (a year or so before this) and he loaded his truck up with everything I owned posters off the wall emptied the drawers bed everying toys mags books games tv everything in one truck load and dumped it on my uncles front lawn.. in the rain by the morning everything was destroyed. what was of value was stolen that was the first tie I was asked to give up everything and follow him.. and kept following till it looked like there was no way back. to the point my uncle was not going to be able to help me this time either (he was going through a divorce during the time my sister and i was on the outs) i was so far out (making 4.00 an hour sweeping floors with a kid sister to feed and school) i did not see any way back.. So God sent someone to show me. I followed the plan and everything he promises has come true.. so far..


and again.. my 'reward' is not the stuff I have.. the business the responsibilities.. that is my job that is what service in the lord looks like. this is the job as a slave of God progresses into ans away from (meaning my tasks will continue to mature as I do spiritually.) they just so happen to look like worldly success and prosperity. Don't get me wrong taking a week off to design your dream home was a very nice 'perk' but I also know how much more quality can be found in life love and family when money is scarce. I see the trade off of a big house where everyone has their own space where as the constant closeness and interactivity a small house and a big family brings. While the big house may be more desirable spiritually it is not 'better for you for a family.'

After what sounds like an unfortunate tale (according to my view of un/fortunate), you stated that line in red. I want to confirm a few things about that particular sentence, as the practical details elude me:

1) Who was that someone that god supposedly sent you? Was it the guy who loaned you the 25k$?
2) Why are you so sure it was god (or his messenger/angel)? Why couldn't it have been a random guy? With all the weird shit that happens in life and all the "unusual" people that surround us, why is that particular man so much more special and worth to be assumed to be a godsent? Why couldn't it have been a person like my auntie?
3) What plan did you follow? Was it a plan you devised and improvised on your own after receiving the money, or was something that the "someone" suggested to you?
4) What were you promised? How did these promises come to being? Are you sure they became reality because of god and not just because of you?

10) says someone who can not imagine a life without freedom of complete moblity. Just because you live with 4 active limbs doesn't mean your total existance will be better...

For instance say there is indeed a god, and your 4 limbs and the freedom they bring fools you into thinking you've earned everything you have thus no God and as a result you miss out on eternal life. Now let say a guy without limbs learns to depend on God for everything. Who's total existence will be better? one who suffers 50 60 years and is born into eternity with a strong relationship with God.. or is it better to live 100 years in complete mobility to wake up to judgement and eternal death?

I know the lazy intellect in you wants to back out and say 'but drich I don't believe in god so I do not have to reconcile this 'what if.' but here's the thing sport.. when you said that's nice for you but what of the kid who was born without... You are presupposing God is real and has blessed me so you demanded an answer for the one who's blessing did not look like a blessing to you.

That is correct. I can't imagine a life with such heavy impairments. I can already barely find a reason to live but my survival instinct keeps me from killing myself; so while I'm alive I just maximize all the activities that bring me excitement, satisfaction, peace of mind or pleasure, while minimizing painful, annoying or boring circumstances. Luckily I am in such condition where I can easily achieve and maintain the current status and so I keep on living. 


But if something very nasty happened to me such as being cut in half or becoming blind (which would make 80% of my activities impossible), then I would most likely find a way out of this misery through suicide. Why should I suffer pointlessly in that case? Just out of the "hope" that there will be a nice afterlife for me? Who gives me this certainty? What if I just end up prolonging that misery for nothing?

I will give you my answer to your question, as I've already asked and pondered this myself many many times: I'd rather live nicely for 50-60 years the present life I know and I'm somewhat sure of (as I wasn't given anything else upon which to base my ideas) rather than suffer 100 years in the hope that some mystical being will grant me a nice afterlife. This is my answer until further evidence shows up. 

At this point you may have picked up on the fact that I don't really care about life and that I'm quite positive that nothing really matters in life, so in turn you could ask me "Why are you so confident and positive that nothing matters and that there is nothing afterwards?"

I have an answer to that too. As I stated in my very first post, I'm an agnostic. I am not certain of what's the truth and the only reality I can try to understand is the physical reality I perceive. What happens when a living being dies in this reality? Its body decomposes and is transformed. It doesn't stop existing, it just transforms. Now, where does our conscience or awareness originate from? That is a question that is still being debated. Scientists understood that whatever it is, is in strict correlation with our brain which acts as the main central. Our brain works by sending signals between neurotransmitters. Any damage specifically to the brain brings impairment to our mind, ability to remember or to reason because these signals get hindered. Is this a conclusive proof that our "conscience" or "soul" or whatever resides exclusively inside the brain? No. But it's a nice hint.

Now, what do you suppose happens when we die and our brain is dispersed in the environment as atoms and molecules? All the neural contacts and links that allowed us to think, reason, remember and "feel feelings", are interrupted and separated. What previously were our brain particles get transformed and recombined into something else. Perhaps they will form a plant, perhaps they will form the shell of a crustacean, maybe they will be swept even further in space, or maybe they'll re-enter another human body. And this cycle will repeat itself with no real goal. It just happens. From these observations, I am somewhat inclined to think that after death there is nothing. This is my theory about life.

But well, I don't have further evidence, so it will remain just my own speculation. Until further evidence shows up (as I highlighted in my previous answer), I will stick to this speculation that to me sounds the most likely and reasonable. 

As you can see, I have no issue in admitting that I don't possess all evidence yet. I don't see anything wrong in admitting that we don't know yet. But if you come on strong and confident that you have found the truth, of course I'll ask you for some kind of evidence. The same evidence I expect out of myself. No less no more. 

If at the end of the day it turns out you were right, then I will accept my fate. I have no regrets. Taking into account what I was given, I don't consider myself in the "wrong" for not believing. I lived life according to my convinctions and philosophy, I made friends and people like me, so if I won't be able to uncover the truth in time, I'll happily depart with my current ideas. It's fine by me.

Following up on the next points, you can anticipate what the answers will be:

11) Better enter the kingdom mamed/missing a hand eye or foot than enter hell whole. God is playing the long game not what is good for you now. God's concern is doing what it will take to ensure eternal life. this should be evident by his willingness to sacrifice his son.

You state it all of this as if it was unquestionable truth. They are assumptions not backed up by any evidence (please provide it if you possess it). What do you know about god's concern? How are you so sure that Christ was his son and not a random dude? And moving on to more common and banal questions: why should god make all this process so tedious and vague and difficult? What's the point? What is he trying to achieve with this? He created humans, but they didn't function as he expected and so he threw them out and made up some confused instructables about how to make them "fix" themselves up and go back to his place. Why all of this?

12) Being literally labeled mentally disabled for the 1st half of my life, I can most certainly attest these what you call failings are really blessings. when view through the scope of eternity. Yours is the handicap if what you are given has your life end at the end of your 75 or 80 years. this life is but a vapor here one moment and gone the next. what fool would invest in something so fleeting? 

I addressed this at point 7) and 10) but I'll repeat myself. I'm only given this physical life upon which I can build a framework with rules and that I can try to understand. From what I gathered so far, I'm inclined to think that there is nothing after biological life, as most findings seem to hint to the fact that our conscience resides in our brain and that once our brain stops working, all our reasoning, memories etc are gone. Where? I don't know. Presumably nowhere. If they were indeed just the results of electrical signals in our brain, then they just stop. In the event that my conscience/soul/whatever still persits after biological life in the form of scattered memories wandering across the universe, then I'm fine with that too.

And now I'll ask you: "what fool would invest in an eternety that is not guaranteed?". If there was evidence that an afterlife exists, then I would change my mind. But to the best of my knowledge, there isn't and so far none of you has shown it.

13) Who says mine is a reward? To me it is a term of service. I sold myself into slavery in order to 'earn' the right to be seen as a son (not salvation as that can not be earned) however our place or status in heaven is. I sever god as a teacher as a business owner as a tool to be used in any way he sees fit. In this life I am first in the next I am promised to be last/ to serve those in whom you look down on now. those who did not have the same opportunities i did. So that one day I might be lifted up as a son.. When you speak you invision only what is directly in front of you. you speak one or maybe two years down the road. I'm establishing roots in the next life.

Ok, you don't see it as a reward in this physical life but more as a condition for later on. But how do you know that you are serving this god? Again (in practice), did he show up again in some form and told you that you are doing a good job? How do you know what he sees fit? Does he send you monthly assignments that you carry out? How does this happen in reality? 

And you are partially correct about what I see, but I'll rectify it a bit: I see what I see, I know what I know. And now back at you: how do you see "beyond"? How do you know there is a next life? Is this perhaps already your 2nd or 3rd life and so you are already experienced with this process?

14) that would have been my lot as my mother fled from one of those places. but what of it/ Jesus was born and lived in an occupied country.. I know western mind do not think they can function under the rule of another, but trust me it just becomes life. Once can still serve God while living in a place devoid of personal freedom. Not a big deal. the only issue i see here is you no long see service as a reward you see only the work. What I am saying is under God service is it's own reward. meaning you will find contentment no matter what God would have you do despite the envy the secular world may have in your job. And in the end if you are truly happy it does not matter what the circumstance is. God is fulfillment beyond circumstance.

I do understand the concept you are trying to convey, as it's similar to what you may feel towards a loved one. For example, when you are helping your wife out or teaching your kids, you don't care about the energy and investment you are putting in, you are happy knowing that you are helping them and making them happy. Correct me if I misunderstood. However, a wife or a kid are physical entities that you perceive in this reality, they are there, they are hard evidence. But how can you love and be happy serving someone whose existence is not even proven (please provide evidece if you have it)?

15) War is your immorality not God's. The bible is full of example of warriors who openly and greatly served God. King David is a great example. Moses while not the typical king or general did indeed lead many campaigns joshua his predecessor again fought many battles. Saul/Paul of the new testament wared against Christ and christianity and God saw him as an asset and turned him. being a fighter does not = unforgivable sin. That is the fake morality of popular culture speaking not God.

Who spoke about morality? Please don't bring in other topics that were never mentionend or alluded to or meant to enter the scene. If you read my very first post, you'd know by now that I'm a nihilist. To my eyes there is no inherent morality. Morality is something man-made and subjective, so leave it out of the scene. Here I am talking about kids who are harmed physically and forced to kill each other (reads: hurting and suffering physical pain). War may not be "immoral" for  god, but it still brings pain and sufference, it impairs life, it makes it more difficult and annoying to live and understand, it leaves lingering traumas. How is any of this a blessing, considering that this perceived reality is all we have? It just sounds like harming each other for the sake of something whose existence is not even a thing.

16) A talent here in not a skill but a measure of gold that equated to one years average salary. So when God give some one like me many 'talents'/money or skill much more us required of me. if someone born in an area with no knowledge of Christ can be equated to someone with very few talents. therefore less is expected. not nothing as the parable warns just not as much as the person given 5

Christ also say I am the way truth and life no one come to the father but through him which means it is not religion that saves us meaning we do not have a prescribed path persay. that Jesus himself is our judge and it is christ and christ alone that will determine our fate based on what he gave us to work with/opportunities we had.

That sounds convenient for him and unfair for others:
1) First of all, what's the point of all of this (I asked this before, but well)
2) Assuming the first point is somewhat addressed, under these conditions, it would ironically be more convenient to have nothing, so that he doesn't expect much while it is unconvenient to have a lot because otherwise he'll expect a lot. Why couldn't he give everyone the same amount? That would have been fair... or maybe he doesn't like boring settings? Perhaps it's more entertaining to spice things up by creating unbalance? 
3) I may sound skeptical about christ's judgement because I'm used to my country's justice which is perverse. Getting involved with the law here only means losing. Even if you are right, you just end up losing money and energy in the process while obtaining nothing, so most of the time it's just wiser to not get involved at all. God created man to his image and likeness, right? What tells me he's any different? Actually, if we are his spitting image, why is he intangible, invisible etc? We aren't like that, but he is, but we are like him, yet we are not. Which is it?

17) my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

This is always in the scope that there is an afterlife, is this correct?

18) What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

This point is a bit confusing. So everyone before his sacrifice (which supposedly nullified all men's sins up to that point in time) were discounted of judgement, while all who came after are not justified anymore? Also, your last two sentences are contradictory: first you say that our worthiness is not based on our deeds, then you say that it's based on who we are... but don't our deeds and actions define who we are? 

19) actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

Thanks for clarifying this point. It always puzzled me but noone before was able to answer me. Even if I'm still skeptical about this book or its presumed purpose, at least I can understand better some points now. Thanks.

 

20) not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?

This brings again the practical issues. You talk about "earnestly meeting God or an angel". How does that happen in practice? How do I know or confirm it's him and not a random encounter? How can I have a conversation with this mister? I've already tried before, even went for other ways, but it just doesn't manifest. You say you need to approach him on his terms, but again, these terms are just like badly written and vague instructables. Also, if his terms are anything like Godscreated said (that logic in reverse where evidence comes after believing), then there is just no way someone like me can engage god. It would just mean to turn off my brain.

And once again, I did not dismiss you, otherwise I wouldn't have asked more questions and replied to this waterfall of text. I am genuinely trying to understand better, and when something smells I say it, so that you can pick up on what exactly I don't understand and perhaps clarify.

Hope you'll take the time to read and reply to this as well.