How to discuss religion with believers?

[The Grand Nudger]

So...OP, you've met our pet christians.  I couldn't have arranged more wonderful examples of why your OPQ amounted to comments of a futile effort.  The types of believers you're looking to engage are..honestly, lost causes, and the types of believers you can engage with will present no significant difficulty. How things ultimately pan out is more luck of the draw than anything else.

We mostly get the lost causes round these parts.....so...you know, interactions here should be taken with a grain of salt. There's something about a gaggle of non believers that makes us irresistible to the worst elements of christendom.
(not to mention islam,judaism, hinduism..etc etc etc)

In my own interactions with believers that can be engaged with..I find nothing but commonality, and I enjoy showing them bits of commonality with other sets of the faithful. I'd say that if you wanted to have those convos, with those people...familiarizing yourself with not only their beliefs, but beliefs representative of the set across multiple sources will provide the basis of productive and enjoyable convos for both sides. Basically, dive into comp myth. You'll just have to avoid fundys like the plague..same as non fundy christians (and other believers) do.

There's just no "there"...there.

[Cod]

Hello,
I'm a chemist irl and work in a research center. I've always been very curious and inquisitive and even though I grew up in a christian family, it didn't take long for me to discard any belief in general.

I'd classify myself as an agnostic, since I don't really have proof for the non-existence of some "creator", but my views are very close to those of an atheist. I have a nihilistic view of the world and life, in my view there is no good/evil, there are just a bunch of things that move. I found myself often discussing religion with believers, be it christians or muslims, but every time we hit a wall. There is just one thing that I, as a scientist, can't accept: believe something without proof. 

No matter how nice and detailed and passionate one religion can be, it's still a book written by another person like me that, for all I know, could have been a troll. The main argument of these people is always the same: "How do you explain this and that? You can't, so it must be because of God, as it's written in this book". 

This is non-sense and just bad practice in the research world, as it's not my duty to prove its non-existence: it's their duty to prove its existence. When writing a research paper or defending my doctoral thesis, I was being questioned for the smallest things like "how can you say for sure that you found that crystalline phase in this solid? From XRD I only see peaks relative to this and that phase, so you are speculating a bit", so how can I let pass something huge like "I can't explain it, so it must be God's work" as a proof of god's existence?

I tried discussing religion with a seemingly chill muslim who looked very quiet and available when I was asking him about islam, but when I started questioning his point, stating that what he presented wasn't enough proof, he started getting irritated and annoyed, since according to him I should have already been converted by his speech. His argument was:
"The quran describes scientific facts in detail and it's the word of Allah. So what other proof do you need to believe in islam?"
However from my experience, any chemistry of physics book does the same thing without claiming it to be the word of god. According to his reasoning, then any scientist could claim godhood by stating "This phenomenon happens because of this, I dare you to prove it wrong. Yeah you can't, I'm god."
At this point he just got mad and started saying I'll go to hell. When I suggested that the world could have as well been created by an alien or giant uncaring monstrosity, he said "Com'on, that's absurd", as if magic wizard Allah was any less absurd.

Most of these religions are sketchy and superficial and fail to address many points (eg, how are animals or plants judged? And what about cavemen that didn't know how to speak and communicate and just hit things with their club? And what about people who are born in such conditions where knowledge is kept hidden to them? What about people who are born physically or mentally ill and can't really help themselves? What about those who are forced to behave in some way? If we really must assume there is a creator, then I'd picture it as some neutral and uncaring entity that wanders in the universe. No hell or heaven, just something that spawns life here and there and moves on).

So my question is: how do you engage in a discussion with these people without it derailing? It's as if they were willfully ignoring or filtering some information, I don't really get it. I'm not really trying to convert them, but rather trying to understand the reasoning that leads them to believe in whatever religion... but no matter how hard I try to understand, their logic is just not in order. Sometimes I'm literally asking them to help me believe in their religion, but every time it's just not enough information to warrant any belief.

Ask a specific question, wait for their lack of response. Ask again, wait for their deflection. Point out their deflection and ask again, wait for their lack of response. Ask again and wait for their deflection. Continue with this until one of you dies.

[Scientia]

So many long posts, I'll go in order (you can skip my answers to other people if you wish).

@ T0 Th3 M4X
1) Here you can find a more general assessment of the big bang theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang . For each chapter, you can find the corresponding reference which will often redirect you to paid journals. I have free access to them through my institution, but for the average citizen this knowledge is otherwise out of reach. This website https://openaccessbutton.org/ lets you selectively browse open access (free) articles. Otherwise, you can use *cough cough, shi-hub, cough cough to kinda unlock any paper by putting in the doi.

2,3,4) seem resolved

5) So basically this is the "infamous" cross-road that separates a believer from a skeptic: you choose to be optimistic and trust this person that claims that book to be the word of God, while I remain wary and distrustful and keep researching and questioning everything. 


@ Godscreated
Even though you said you won't reply to this thread anymore (and then what was the point?), you didn't exclude other communication forms (eg through PMs) and so I'll answer to your points anyways for the sake of it:

1) Most of those people were Christians looking to explain God's creation. The reason you only experience the present physical reality is because it's all you have. until you come to know God it will be all you will ever know. Christians like myself have come to know the creator God and in that we can have an understanding from Him if we seek it. Many Christians blab about God did it without ever knowing what they are talking about, but the sensible Christian will set down and explain things to you. But if you use the references about God that you did in this post to me you will find most Christians pushing back at you for not having respect for their beliefs especially when you have no proof they are wrong

Why are these believers so easily offended by my lack of understanding of their belief? Should I feel offended every time one of my students destroys math and chemistry in the tests I give them? Should I feel offended every time my granma asks me to solve a proportion for a cake recipe with my "science things"? I don't have any problem explaining the science I know and I have no problems admitting what I don't know. Why must they be so defensive about it?

2) I guess it might seem like magic to those who can't understand even to some Christians. However the correct word their is omnipotence, "all powerful." By the way if you are not as afraid as most of the atheist here you should seriously look into creation science you just might find yourself finding the truth you say you're looking for, if you are not afraid to.

I've already looked into it, but the problem is always the same: lack of evidence. It's speculation just like unknown science is, and is as worthy. Sure, I may feel more or less inclined towards one of the two, but it will remain a gut feeling until conclusive evidence shows up. Probably the difference is that I don't risk believing something that may be wrong and so I keep questioning it until conclusive evidence is shown. If no such evidence ever shows up, then I'll die questioning. 

Anyways, if you possess some particular creation science article/page you want to share, feel free to send it to me via PM. 

3) Since I can't and want speak for other religions I will speak to the case of Christianity. Yes you have missed out by rejecting God and yes you have rejected God, you see there is no middle ground, you either believe or reject. Some people play at Christianity but they too have rejected Christ. Again if you want to truly get somewhere in understanding the truth of God from others, words like magical want help you, alienating people with disrespect will put you on the outside looking in. Like I said earlier find a Christian who will set down with you and explain what they know, but if proof is the only thing you will except then you are never going to get there. God gives proof to those who come to Christ and ask Him to show them truth, he will do it in His time for your good.

So you are saying the two are mutually exclusive? This poses a big problem. First of all:
How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up? I've already tried that and nothing happened. Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either. Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

Being such an inquisitive guy, I've always explored and investigated everything. I had the most fun when I was a kid and was researching aliens and weird happenings because they were.... weird, unusual, unpredictable. But the more I learnt, the more disenchanted I became with the world until everything pretty much lost its charme as I came to understand it. In a way I wanted for those "things" to be somewhat real, because they'd have made my life more curious and fun. I tried to believe in them, but nothing worked.

While studying chemistry, which allowed me to understand how everything works even more, I also investigated psychology. I had read of people who had visions and hallucinations about angels or god and I was curious as to how they had them. Were they real? Were their testimony reliable? I read some case studies and came across the word "autosuggestion" which basically states that if you drive all your thoughts towards an idea so hard, you may actually convince yourself of it and even see it materializing. I read of schizophrenia, studied it in parallel, asked some university professor about it, and learnt that these hallucinations do not extend just to angels/gods but to pretty much anything. From imaginary friends to devils, monsters or just voices, annoying repetitive whispers, and what not. And so, how can you really differentiate at this point? What if anyone who claims to have met got just got caught in autosuggestion? What if what they saw was just the materialization of THEIR idea of god? Have you read about John Nash or watched the movie about him? 

4) Benevolent, show me in the Bible where that word or any phrase concerning that word is located. God is many awesome things but benevolent isn't one of them. God through His grace will show or give benevolence to individuals, but to be benevolent in the same way He is truth and love would limit Him in His work.

I'm not speaking of the bible in particular but any holy book. But if you so much want to cling to irrelevant details as this, then here you go: 
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction...verses.htm
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Benevolence
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus...lence-.htm
http://voiceoftruthblog.com/the-benevolence-of-god
https://crossexamined.org/the-omnibenevolence-of-god/

5) When you use the words you have to describe the Christian God and then say you are open to the truth, well, you betray yourself and show that you only engage in discussions with Christians as a pass time, you even said so in this post to me. There is a world of evidence for God and the creation, but only to those who will take their blinders off and actually seek the truth. Of coarse we are confident, Paul tells the believer that we can have such confidence when we trust in God, I do and I have that confidence, it is unshakable. There is no fast track to the truth, it takes an open mind, patience and trust in God. I'm a questioning Christian and through that God has taught me many things, I ask and if He desires for me to have the answer I will receive it and I have been shown many amazing things. Why me, because I have trusted my life to God through Christ and want to sincerely know the real truths. You can't get truths from God until you accept Him as the truth and that my friend means accepting Christ as your savior. Sorry if you do not like that but that's the way it has to be, it is God's creation man has spoiled after all

The order in which you put these operations is backwards. You first get the evidence and then believe it. You don't believe it and then get the evidence. Also re-read what you wrote and try to put yourself in my shoes: what should I exactly understand of what you described? You talked about trusting in god but when I read about it, it's described in such vague and general terms, it's invisible, intangible, everywhere and nowhere.... I just picture nothingness with this description. What did god teach you? How did he do it? Did he materialize (and how did it look? Was it a cloud or an old man?) and what did he tell you? Or you didn't see anything but heard a whisper in your ear? Or neither that and he just materialized in your mind and thoughts? How does all of this happen? You talk about it as if it was something normal and ordinary, but to someone who never experienced such thing it's impossible to picture. And what does it mean to see Christ as my savior? What is he saving me from? Why should I ask to be saved? And again, when you say you get the truth when you accept god as the truth, that's again backwards logic. From a purely logical point of view, that order is in reverse.

6) There you go again, far fetched story, you're betraying yourself again. Science will never explain everything because the science that you speak of is man made and man manipulated. God knows all, omniscient, He has all the truths, things that would blow our minds if explained to us, things we could never understand. About that "yet," I say the same thing when it comes to things we have not been able to explain that's in the Bible, so my yet holds the same weight as your's does. I have explained some things to you now it's up to you to search out the truth and it want happen on this forum, I've been here many years and I know what happens here. I came back from a rest that I've not finished to see what was happening and had no intentions of being in any discussions, I decided to for this one thread, but now I'm finished and will continue with my rest, yes that means I will have no further discussion with you about this thread, good luck in your search, i hope you can find a way to open your mind up to find the real truth.

You state with such certainty and confidence that science will never explain everything. How do you know? Till some century ago it was unthinkable to fly or reach the moon and yet here we are and such mysteries are out of the way. What is exactly stopping science? Give it time. 

Also, you say that god knows everything and has all truths but if he explained them to us, our minds would be blown. Then I'd like to tell him that he can go ahead and blow my mind. His followers may not consider themselves up to the task, but I'll take up the challenge and welcome any mindblowing truth. When you talk about "things we would never understand", I'd reply "speak for yourself". That's totally not the attitude of someone who wants to know the truth, but that of someone who has given up.

7) Thus the problem with modern science, it doesn't seek absolute truth only that which supports what a given scientist wants to believe. As I said to Scientia, I will not be engaging in further discussions in this thread, I have a rest to finish.

That's not how science works. When I research something, I start from an hypothesis. Then I carry out an experiment and if it does work out, then it just works, I was right. If it doesn't work out, then I don't go and falsify data to claim it was right. I investigate what went wrong and I study and study until I understand why. If I make a mistake along the way, thinking I proved something right when I did not, then I will go and correct my mistake and reshape my thesis. What I want to believe has nothing to do with it.

@ Drich
The first part of your post has a logic and I can agree to a certain degree. I did have confirmation from some honest believer who admitted that he'd rather believe there was some nice afterlife for good people than accept that all the wrongs he endured in life would have no effect or consequence afterwards.

So religion chosen as a way to justify the injustice of life, a way to feel somehow rewarded and not feel guilt. A longing for feeling loved, wanted, rewarded, justified, glorified. But that's not the same as researching the truth. And the truth may as well be that indeed nothing really matters. I do understand that some people find refuge in religion due to their impossibility to live aimlessly or without a truth or superior goal to work towards to, and so they cling to whatever claimed truth they find. But I want to stay positive and think that not everyone is like that.

About the second half of your post however, that's very subjective and sounds more like a way to justify(and why should you?) a success here and there in life. The thing is, I've had relatively nice success in life and career and health so far. I won many prizes for my age in my field, never had any serious illness (never went to the hospital in the past 23y), never had anything very wrong going on in my life. I would consider myself lucky since I was born in a decent family that gave me an education, but I also have my merits because I worked hard towards my goals and never gave up. My determination rewarded me, not some weird entity. 

But In parallel, I could also see many other people who were born in even nicer conditions and were overall even "luckier". I always tried to earn things on my own, without asking others for help, but I also saw people getting credit for other people work and never getting any kind of bad consequence out of it. I also saw unlucky people born in violent families and enduring all sorts of wrongdoings and eventually either rise up or fall even lower. Sometimes I would feel annoyed at the former but lucky compared to the latter. In time I just stopped caring.

What I learnt so far is that nothing really matters. It doesn't matter if you are a horrible person who exploits others, you can still live a nice life and have 0 troubles, just like you can be the kindest and most gentle person, and have all sort of impeding illnesses and die at a young age in agony. There exist all kinds of combinations of situations, I'm one of those combination just like you.

You said that you trusted in god and were rewarded. That's nice for you. Now what about that kid who is born without legs and arms? What about that other kid who is born with down syndrome or is born blind and deaf? Just "bad luck" and let's shrug it off? Did they have any chance at any point to trust in god and get the same nice reward you got? What about those kids born in countries where war rages? They are taught from infancy to embrace arms and go to war. What about them? What about those kids who are kept in ignorance from birth? You had a choice, you chose to believe and supposedly were rewarded. They never had a choice, what about them? But let's go back in time a bit. What about all those people before christianity? Let's just forget the past 50.000 years of humanity (300.000 if we consider homo sapiens in general or 15 M years if we consider our ancestors as well)? Let's just swipe them under the carpet and forget they ever happened and let's start anew with the humans of 0 AC?

It's easy when you consider just yourself and your situation. You can fit all that happens in your life with patterns of any book, but try to expand and see how it applies to everyone else. Physical laws work because they are always valid in any circumstance. If they stopped working even once, then that would be a huge hole in the theory and would need to be revisited or it would become invalid.

[Angrboda]

Oh bullshit, Drich.  You found God as a side show to chasing some skirt.  Not out of any concern for the truth.

I went to a specific church chasing skirt.. I did not marry that girl nor do I go to that church or ascribe membership to that denomination. the principles I teach here primarily the bit about having the core beliefs and it does not matter which church you choose because of God's grace is considered heretical there in that church. they are very legalistic and honestly believe they are the only example of God's true church on earth and as a result will be the only church representing the whole of heaven.

I also went to 7 day adventist church because of a girl who drove a 70 mach 1 mustang I liked

Studied Islam because of an employee I had for 2 years invited me over for dinner.

Went for the girls.. stayed to check out what they believed and why. 

Did my own study found the missing pieces.

put the into practice found what the bible promised.

Starting out was definitely not a saint, cant even pretend I was as concerned about 'morality' as much as you people are. I just knew there was truth in all of this some where and sought it out. for me then and my way of thinking the girl was sent by god (for different reasons) that what i believe now. in short God sent a carrot instead of a stick

---

The whole Hell thing kicked started this whole process. I knew hell was real its just I didn't know which version. again all I knew was of Dante's inferno version of hell/the catholic version so I was pretty sure that was wrong because what i experienced was nothing like it. but as I studied I found what I experienced was in the bible despite not being apart of most versions of hell in christian church. I got my 'second chance' because I did not know any better and I wondered would I be here if I did know the truth. So I set out to learn the truth even if it was at the allure of a very pretty face and a nice set of boobs.

That's not a denial, Drich. That's what those of us in the business call confirmation. You were primed to think about, dream about, and accept such things because it suited the goals of your peener. Your penis led you to God, not any search for the truth. This is just more pious fiction from a liar for Jesus.

[Mister Agenda]

It might be more helpful in the long run to talk about a more neutral subject that involves believing something without sufficient evidence to justify the belief. If they believe in Bigfoot or ghosts, talk about that. You get to use all the same reasoning on a topic that isn't part of their core identity, and if you win that debate and they never change their mind about their religious belief, at least they don't buy into Nessie or whatever anymore.

[Drich]

@ Drich
The first part of your post has a logic and I can agree to a certain degree. I did have confirmation from some honest believer who admitted that he'd rather believe there was some nice afterlife for good people than accept that all the wrongs he endured in life would have no effect or consequence afterwards.

it is funny to me that most people will acknowledge the 'thought and observation put into the first 1/2' but discard the idea that the same objectivity went into the second half just because I did not come to the same conclusion as you did. To you.. it is impossible That I found something you didn't..

So religion chosen as a way to justify the injustice of life, a way to feel somehow rewarded and not feel guilt. A longing for feeling loved, wanted, rewarded, justified, glorified. 

To whom do you speak that religion filled these roles? these seem like trivial cursory observation leading to the idea that people are generally stupid and they seek anything to pacify the above mention needs.. If you did read my first 1/2 you will note I argue the opposite. the above mention while are indeed on some people radar the vast majority are not stupid and do indeed seek the truth otherwise we would not have religion ever die. because the above mention are all things can be self full filling meaning no real outside influences are needed to feel any one of those things. Again understand people believe in religion because something whether it be fellow man government society demons or God fuels external fulfillment in one way or another.. The religion full fill it's promises, or it is doomed to die!

It is foolish to think your fellow man just overly needy and can't discern truth. Granted most religious promises are based around what whatever fuels the religion. meaning if society is the religious fuel then by society's over all involvement the promises of said religion are generally kept. and so on. However when it comes to things like direct contact with God few would argue that society has the power to manifest such a promise. That is the case with Christianity. Direct contact with God is the reward of the faithful.

But that's not the same as researching the truth.

because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

And the truth may as well be that indeed nothing really matters. I do understand that some people find refuge in religion due to their impossibility to live aimlessly or without a truth or superior goal to work towards to, and so they cling to whatever claimed truth they find. But I want to stay positive and think that not everyone is like that.

Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.


Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.

About the second half of your post however, that's very subjective and sounds more like a way to justify(and why should you?) a success here and there in life.

Because you  have no idea what my life was, before hand. I was the polar opposite.

The thing is, I've had relatively nice success in life and career and health so far. I won many prizes for my age in my field, never had any serious illness (never went to the hospital in the past 23y), never had anything very wrong going on in my life. I would consider myself lucky since I was born in a decent family that gave me an education, but I also have my merits because I worked hard towards my goals and never gave up. My determination rewarded me, not some weird entity. 

and do you think you could have earn the very same thing/earned the same position you had in life if say you could not read? what if basic math alluded you? then find God and it is like someone turn on a switch, and you go from a forrest gump floor sweep to a mechanic to a business owner to a franchised business owner to a engineer to a patent holder who's sold their work to a big company, and took what was made and double down the the business into nationally recognized business (in my field of course).. Did I also mention I have always spent the vast majority of my time studying the bible and answering questions here? that deals simply drop into our lap. we do not market we do not advertise beyond a single car trader type of magazine. I have not worked hard/I do not work hard, I have in the past, I have no real business training. And I got started with a 25K loan from a stranger who felt compelled to help me go out on my own, because he said he could see something in me. that I spend the lions share of my time here answering questions? As if the business was given to me to support what I do here and in places like this..

But In parallel, I could also see many other people who were born in even nicer conditions and were overall even "luckier". I always tried to earn things on my own, without asking others for help, but I also saw people getting credit for other people work and never getting any kind of bad consequence out of it. I also saw unlucky people born in violent families and enduring all sorts of wrongdoings and eventually either rise up or fall even lower. Sometimes I would feel annoyed at the former but lucky compared to the latter. In time I just stopped caring.

I was the latter I was born to a korean mother and 1/2 a drunk red neck. who would randomly pull me out of bed by my foot and make me rake the yard at 2AM in the complete dark because it did not 'feel like it had been done.' or wash a car or clean the windows or just to take a beating because of my report card was not good enough (he being a teacher in the same school district and me failing retard classes made him look bad. Should have been there for my 'Reading lessons.' Stuff like that and being molested by a few different people got me to the point where I hated god, so just before high school and all though it even a little after I hated the idea of God and even sought out to beat the shte out of people who brought their bibles to school.

 I was mad at them for believing in a god who would allow me to get beat up everyday by one group of people or another everyday. I fought everyday of my school life till one day I was DDT-ed so hard into the pavement it knocked me out for a few mins, and I did not rat out the white racist who did it. Then I was ok with the whites. beating the christians made me ok with the emo/dracula club. but there were still a few whites and blacks who just rando attacked me.. so I hid most of the day not going to class because they would wait for me. my Ag. teacher had comic books from the 60 and 70 in the back office and he would let me hide out and read them/learn teach myself how to read off the pictures and actions on page. I could read only comic books when I graduated because I could visualize what was being said. then a year or two later I was given my first bible. and it was like someone turning on a light switch. it was the first time I could read without pictures. and for a long time after it was the only thing I could read without pictures. Even now I struggle with spelling and grammar because I am still learning as I go.

What I learnt so far is that nothing really matters. It doesn't matter if you are a horrible person who exploits others, you can still live a nice life and have 0 troubles, just like you can be the kindest and most gentle person, and have all sort of impeding illnesses and die at a young age in agony. There exist all kinds of combinations of situations, I'm one of those combination just like you.

It doesn't matter to you because to you the end result is what you would consider 'good.' I'm not talking about my success found in my business or the patents or the time I send here teaching. My success was defined by my journey. from my beginnings to where I am now, itis the stuff that happened in between.. Me finding out on my honey moon my wife had a 250$ a day heroin addiction and the 7 years we spent in the detox of hell, while at the same time just starting a business all the endless nights of work then paper work then taxes then her stuff. then mix in a Aids scare and a cancer scare (test procedures bone marrow scans the whole nine yards) and through all of that at some point my appendix burst.. but while having the cancer scan they said the appendix had burst some time back and was now dormant. did I mention I had no insurance most of this, and it was just 'taken care of' anonymously. a check just showed up from some fund with a authorization number instead of a signature.

You said that you trusted in god and were rewarded.

no, no.. I trusted in god and followed him way way beyond any help I could get from anyone.. My situation in the beginning was hopeless, literally kicked out of my house at 19 or 20 with a 9 year old younger sister to care for. (Came home one fatherday or maybe it was his brthday) from church and my mom went back to korea for a few months and my dad was home drunk alone eating cabbage and beef in the dark. We turn on the light and handed him a joke fathers day card that said something like 'sorry you missed your father's day steak dinner it was delicious and we brought you back a souvenir which was a tooth picked taped on the inside.

he said Do you think this was funny?? where were you? We were at church so he took his cabbage and beef and threw it at us. He made a nasty comment about the god I served, and we left and made arrangements to sleep at a friend's house for a day or two and then I went home after work to talk to an uncle and on the way was told to buy some drinks (mountain dew and diet coke) so I did pulled into a texico store who's whole parking lot could be seen from the intersection which was good because it was poorly lit. it was empty so I pulled in, and when I open the door and a huge dirty looking black man was well with in my personal space. out of nowhere stood a dirty stained jeans work boots camo style army jacket and a ski mask beanie wraped around a homeless looking big black guy... he said he needed to get home asap because his parole officer was going to call soon and if he wasn't home they would arrest him and put him back in jail. and i remember thinking strike 3, but I said I'm here for drinks my uncle is expecting me, ill be back. I just got paid and I divided my money and put the bulk in one pocket and a few dollars is the right (because no matter what you do for homeless people they always ask for a few dollars.) So I paid for everything and went out ask the guy where he was going he said downtown in the little town i was in (about 5 miles away) I was in a ranchero/el camino pick up truck/car front. and he went to get in the back it was very cold I said you can ride up front, and that is the last think I think I said to him aloud...

He said I'm going to speak fast cause we don't have much time.. I am what you might call a fortune teller. then he proceeded to tell me everything that I was going through he told me how it was all going to be resolved he told me what course to take he told me why me dad was going nuts he told me about my mom in korea he then started with the prayers I had/had been praying currently he told me of prayers I had prayed as a kid and thought no one heard me he told me why i was made to suffer what little i did. He then told me of opportunities i would have them at some point in all of that I thought to myself this guy must be my guardian angel.. he stop smiled shook his head and continued on. He basically laid my whole life out if I simply kept the path I was on. once he finished just past down town he told me to turn into another store/kangeroo and he got out my mind blown he then turn back and asked for a couple of buck "cause you know no matter what you do for homeless folks they always hit you up for a few bucks)

I spun a u-turn and he was gone as fast as he appeared.

I did not follow god and good things happened. I followed god and my life fell apart, and I continued looking for truth and I had to give up everything I owned. (my dad found out i was staying with my uncle (a year or so before this) and he loaded his truck up with everything I owned posters off the wall emptied the drawers bed everying toys mags books games tv everything in one truck load and dumped it on my uncles front lawn.. in the rain by the morning everything was destroyed. what was of value was stolen that was the first tie I was asked to give up everything and follow him.. and kept following till it looked like there was no way back. to the point my uncle was not going to be able to help me this time either (he was going through a divorce during the time my sister and i was on the outs) i was so far out (making 4.00 an hour sweeping floors with a kid sister to feed and school) i did not see any way back.. So God sent someone to show me. I followed the plan and everything he promises has come true.. so far..

and again.. my 'reward' is not the stuff I have.. the business the responsibilities.. that is my job that is what service in the lord looks like. this is the job as a slave of God progresses into ans away from (meaning my tasks will continue to mature as I do spiritually.) they just so happen to look like worldly success and prosperity. Don't get me wrong taking a week off to design your dream home was a very nice 'perk' but I also know how much more quality can be found in life love and family when money is scarce. I see the trade off of a big house where everyone has their own space where as the constant closeness and interactivity a small house and a big family brings. While the big house may be more desirable spiritually it is not 'better for you for a family.'

That's nice for you. Now what about that kid who is born without legs and arms?

says someone who can not imagine a life without freedom of complete moblity. Just because you live with 4 active limbs doesn't mean your total existance will be better...

For instance say there is indeed a god, and your 4 limbs and the freedom they bring fools you into thinking you've earned everything you have thus no God and as a result you miss out on eternal life. Now let say a guy without limbs learns to depend on God for everything. Who's total existence will be better? one who suffers 50 60 years and is born into eternity with a strong relationship with God.. or is it better to live 100 years in complete mobility to wake up to judgement and eternal death?

I know the lazy intellect in you wants to back out and say 'but drich I don't believe in god so I do not have to reconcile this 'what if.' but here's the thing sport.. when you said that's nice for you but what of the kid who was born without... You are presupposing God is real and has blessed me so you demanded an answer for the one who's blessing did not look like a blessing to you.

What about that other kid who is born with down syndrome or is born blind and deaf?

Better enter the kingdom mamed/missing a hand eye or foot than enter hell whole. God is playing the long game not what is good for you now. God's concern is doing what it will take to ensure eternal life. this should be evident by his willingness to sacrifice his son.

Just "bad luck" and let's shrug it off?

Being literally labeled mentally disabled for the 1st half of my life, I can most certainly attest these what you call failings are really blessings. when view through the scope of eternity. Yours is the handicap if what you are given has your life end at the end of your 75 or 80 years. this life is but a vapor here one moment and gone the next. what fool would invest in something so fleeting?

Did they have any chance at any point to trust in god and get the same nice reward you got?

Who says mine is a reward? To me it is a term of service. I sold myself into slavery in order to 'earn' the right to be seen as a son (not salvation as that can not be earned) however our place or status in heaven is. I sever god as a teacher as a business owner as a tool to be used in any way he sees fit. In this life I am first in the next I am promised to be last/ to serve those in whom you look down on now. those who did not have the same opportunities i did. So that one day I might be lifted up as a son.. When you speak you invision only what is directly in front of you. you speak one or maybe two years down the road. I'm establishing roots in the next life.

What about those kids born in countries where war rages?

that would have been my lot as my mother fled from one of those places. but what of it/ Jesus was born and lived in an occupied country.. I know western mind do not think they can function under the rule of another, but trust me it just becomes life. Once can still serve God while living in a place devoid of personal freedom. Not a big deal. the only issue i see here is you no long see service as a reward you see only the work. What I am saying is under God service is it's own reward. meaning you will find contentment no matter what God would have you do despite the envy the secular world may have in your job. And in the end if you are truly happy it does not matter what the circumstance is. God is fulfillment beyond circumstance.

They are taught from infancy to embrace arms and go to war. What about them?

War is your immorality not God's. The bible is full of example of warriors who openly and greatly served God. King David is a great example. Moses while not the typical king or general did indeed lead many campaigns joshua his predecessor again fought many battles. Saul/Paul of the new testament wared against Christ and christianity and God saw him as an asset and turned him. being a fighter does not = unforgivable sin. That is the fake morality of popular culture speaking not God.

What about those kids who are kept in ignorance from birth? 

ever hear of the parable of the talents? I ask this because Christ Himself answers your question.



A talent here in not a skill but a measure of gold that equated to one years average salary. So when God give some one like me many 'talents'/money or skill much more us required of me. if someone born in an area with no knowledge of Christ can be equated to someone with very few talents. therefore less is expected. not nothing as the parable warns just not as much as the person given 5

Christ also say I am the way truth and life no one come to the father but through him which means it is not religion that saves us meaning we do not have a prescribed path persay. that Jesus himself is our judge and it is christ and christ alone that will determine our fate based on what he gave us to work with/opportunities we had.

You had a choice, you chose to believe and supposedly were rewarded. They never had a choice, what about them?

my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

But let's go back in time a bit. What about all those people before christianity?

What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

Let's just forget the past 50.000 years of humanity (300.000 if we consider homo sapiens in general or 15 M years if we consider our ancestors as well)? Let's just swipe them under the carpet and forget they ever happened and let's start anew with the humans of 0 AC?

actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

It's easy when you consider just yourself and your situation. You can fit all that happens in your life with patterns of any book, but try to expand and see how it applies to everyone else. Physical laws work because they are always valid in any circumstance. If they stopped working even once, then that would be a huge hole in the theory and would need to be revisited or it would become invalid.

not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?

[Scientia]

Long reply inc. I numbered your points for ease:

@ Drich

1) it is funny to me that most people will acknowledge the 'thought and observation put into the first 1/2' but discard the idea that the same objectivity went into the second half just because I did not come to the same conclusion as you did. To you.. it is impossible That I found something you didn't..

To me it is not impossible, but if all you people keep giving me is banther without one ounce of evidence, it remains a tale. A tale as worthy to be believed as that found in a fantasy book. What puzzles me is that you(in general, not you specifically) claim to have found the truth, or god, or name it however you want but when asked how the process works, it is as vague as synthetizing anti-matter. "Embrace god", "trust in Christ", "open yourself to him", "accept all the shit you are thrown at", etc. None of these can be reproducibly or reliably recognized or detected at all. You can convince yourself it is because of this, but that's just gut feeling. But stating with certainty that you found it and it is as it is, it's rather bold.

2) To whom do you speak that religion filled these roles? these seem like trivial cursory observation leading to the idea that people are generally stupid and they seek anything to pacify the above mention needs.. If you did read my first 1/2 you will note I argue the opposite. the above mention while are indeed on some people radar the vast majority are not stupid and do indeed seek the truth otherwise we would not have religion ever die. because the above mention are all things can be self full filling meaning no real outside influences are needed to feel any one of those things. Again understand people believe in religion because something whether it be fellow man government society demons or God fuels external fulfillment in one way or another.. The religion full fill it's promises, or it is doomed to die!

It is foolish to think your fellow man just overly needy and can't discern truth. Granted most religious promises are based around what whatever fuels the religion. meaning if society is the religious fuel then by society's over all involvement the promises of said religion are generally kept. and so on. However when it comes to things like direct contact with God few would argue that society has the power to manifest such a promise. That is the case with Christianity. Direct contact with God is the reward of the faithful.

No, people are not necessarily stupid, but they may be lazy or just don't want to know. My uncle is the most erudite person I know and he's christian, but I can see where he stopped. He doesn't question his religion/god anymore. I asked him why, the reply was "at my age, what's the point of further looking into it? It was the answer I sought and the answer I got. You can't really reason it out, at some point you have to make a leap of faith. You are too annoying and inquisitive to make that leap, but it won't really matter at the end, you are a good guy". He's old now, life was different at his time, but the main difference between us is that I keep researching and investigating while he stopped at the first assumed truth. It may be the actual truth in the end, but how do you know already at this point in time without further research?


Also, you talk about direct contact with God. Perhaps it would be useful for you to read my answers to Godscreated, as they cover this. I'll copypaste some line to save you time:

How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up? I've already tried that and nothing happened. Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either. Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

If the bible is an instruction book, then it's badly written. Everything can be interpreted in many ways, it's more like a puzzle with no solution (or many solutions).

3) because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

As above.

4) Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.


Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.

Don't put words in my mouth. I am asking you of the reasons(evidence) that make you so certain and confident that what's written in this book is the truth, and you fail to deliver this reason/evidence. If you asked me "what makes you so confident that the gravitational constant is 9.81 m/s2?" then I would tell you that I made an experiment throwing an object and its motion behaved according to that number. I would also go on and make you notice that planes fly based on that number as wel and that this number works every time without exception. I would also add that all my confidence is based on the reality I perceive as this is the only thing I have (and I guess it's also the only thing you have and see). If we want to question even this perception of reality, speculating that maybe I am insane and I am imagining all of this inside a white room, then even solipsism is invited to the party. 


But what did you give me in return beside your tale? When you people ask for science proof, I have no problem in providing you the source and the means to read paid journals, but when I ask you how you confirm your beliefs, what I get is "I embraced it, trusted it, and it helped me push forward and I know I will be rewarded in the eternal afterlife or be happy serving him". How did he help you? Did he whisper in your ear? Did he materialize in front you (or if not him personally, perhaps an angel? Or maybe under the form of an animal or old man or a cloud or whatever)? Or if you didn't see anything, did you hear his whisper in your head? A voice? A recurring dream? How? And how did you confirm it was him? Did you ask him? And if he/she/it replied positively, how can you trust it unconditionally?

None of you ever answers this. It's always left vague, general, in the clouds. There is no way to understand what you guys mean when you speak in such vague terms. You are talking about the nothingness in my eyes, so please try to be clearer if you can. Try to correct my view, if it is indeed incorrect. Everytime I get replies as if I was provoking you guys. I'm sincerely asking to be convinced of it, if you have found some proof or evidence that I overlooked. And if you haven't, please don't reply again in vague terms. At least say something along the lines "we do not possess scientific evidence as you mean it in this phisical reality, so we can't prove it to you that way". That answer would already tick out one box so I could move to the next step. But here I am left waiting for some evidence that is mentioned, allluded, hinted but never fully fledged out and described.

5) Because you  have no idea what my life was, before hand. I was the polar opposite.

Addressed in the following

6) and do you think you could have earn the very same thing/earned the same position you had in life if say you could not read? what if basic math alluded you? then find God and it is like someone turn on a switch, and you go from a forrest gump floor sweep to a mechanic to a business owner to a franchised business owner to a engineer to a patent holder who's sold their work to a big company, and took what was made and double down the the business into nationally recognized business (in my field of course).. Did I also mention I have always spent the vast majority of my time studying the bible and answering questions here? that deals simply drop into our lap. we do not market we do not advertise beyond a single car trader type of magazine. I have not worked hard/I do not work hard, I have in the past, I have no real business training. And I got started with a 25K loan from a stranger who felt compelled to help me go out on my own, because he said he could see something in me. that I spend the lions share of my time here answering questions? As if the business was given to me to support what I do here and in places like this..

No, of course I wouldn't have if I were blind. But then it wouldn't be me. What switch are you talking about? What you are saying sounds like "if you believe in god, then you'll manage to surpass your limits". Are you saying that embracing god is enough to trigger some "miracle" in life? That perhaps someone without legs will be able to levitate if he believes in god? 


You know, my cousin converted to christianity because of an episode of his life. He was a lawyer, rich, successful, never believed in anything despite his family being heavily christian and always overindulged himself with food and was huge. Then he had a stroke and his heart almost stopped. The doctors operated him  and he recovered. Since that episode he converted to christianity, saying how he felt this was a 2nd chance from above to stop being a pig and how he'd devote himself to god from that day on. The actual fact however, is that his condition wasn't as bad as he thought and the doctors simply performed a normal operation with a great chance of success. Would you define this as a miracle? I would define this as "statistics".

Then you have my auntie, a heavy smoker who was super christian since forever. Very kind and nice with everyone, a golden person who loved life, very generous. Someone who went through divorce because she donated all her savings to help the poor (in disagreement with my uncle). Guess what happened? Her lungs just stopped working. 

And then there is you and I personally don't see how what's special with your tale exactly. Yours just looks like a... life. Harder than some, better than some other (from my pov as a "happiness economist"). One of the many possible combinations. Just like my cousin's, just like my auntie's, just like mine. 

But again, those are irrelevant details to me. What puzzles me is how you are so confident and certain that the god described in that book is the truth?. Are you sure your life evolved like it did because of God? Or did it evolve like that because of your "convinction" of god's existence? A sort of placebo effect? Or autosuggestion? There are psychology therapies where they make you repeat phrases such as "I am a talented person", "I am not worse than others", "I am not stupid" to build up confidence. How are you certain that you achieved what you did because of god and not because of autosuggestion or one of those confidence build-up techniques?

7) I was the latter I was born to a korean mother and 1/2 a drunk red neck. who would randomly pull me out of bed by my foot and make me rake the yard at 2AM in the complete dark because it did not 'feel like it had been done.' or wash a car or clean the windows or just to take a beating because of my report card was not good enough (he being a teacher in the same school district and me failing retard classes made him look bad. Should have been there for my 'Reading lessons.' Stuff like that and being molested by a few different people got me to the point where I hated god, so just before high school and all though it even a little after I hated the idea of God and even sought out to beat the shte out of people who brought their bibles to school.

 I was mad at them for believing in a god who would allow me to get beat up everyday by one group of people or another everyday. I fought everyday of my school life till one day I was DDT-ed so hard into the pavement it knocked me out for a few mins, and I did not rat out the white racist who did it. Then I was ok with the whites. beating the christians made me ok with the emo/dracula club. but there were still a few whites and blacks who just rando attacked me.. so I hid most of the day not going to class because they would wait for me. my Ag. teacher had comic books from the 60 and 70 in the back office and he would let me hide out and read them/learn teach myself how to read off the pictures and actions on page. I could read only comic books when I graduated because I could visualize what was being said. then a year or two later I was given my first bible. and it was like someone turning on a light switch. it was the first time I could read without pictures. and for a long time after it was the only thing I could read without pictures. Even now I struggle with spelling and grammar because I am still learning as I go.

The only limits of man are the ones that man places upon himself.

Typically we build up confidence by scoring a success, and lose confidence by failing. How many failures one can endure before breaking change from person to person. Being brought up in an environment that is not healthy for the development of self-confidence surely doesn't help the cause. Having to deal with a strict father and being continuously compared to others can also be detrimental to the development of self-confidence where no base is present. Having expectations loaded on your back builds up even more pressure. 

Please try to remember: what were the books that you couldn't read without pictures? I guess school textbooks or any book that, once read, should have made you "functional" in that specific discipline/skill. If you were brought up in an environment where you were convinced of being a retard and where everything seemed to confirm that, you'd eventually accept that as a fact. Therefore the idea of understanding any book that was supposed to teach you some skill would already be rejected by your brain a priori. What's special about comic books and the bible? You weren't expected anything out of them. The former were used as a training dummy, it didn't matter whether you understood them or not, and you despised the latter and hate is a good fuel. Turns out you weren't retarded. You never were at any point most likely. Struggling with grammar and spelling is not as uncommon as you may think. Also keep in mind that shitty teachers with shitty textbooks wouldn't be able to teach anything even to Einstein or Hawking. 

8) It doesn't matter to you because to you the end result is what you would consider 'good.' I'm not talking about my success found in my business or the patents or the time I send here teaching. My success was defined by my journey. from my beginnings to where I am now, itis the stuff that happened in between.. Me finding out on my honey moon my wife had a 250$ a day heroin addiction and the 7 years we spent in the detox of hell, while at the same time just starting a business all the endless nights of work then paper work then taxes then her stuff. then mix in a Aids scare and a cancer scare (test procedures bone marrow scans the whole nine yards) and through all of that at some point my appendix burst.. but while having the cancer scan they said the appendix had burst some time back and was now dormant. did I mention I had no insurance most of this, and it was just 'taken care of' anonymously. a check just showed up from some fund with a authorization number instead of a signature.

You are the first one who criticizes me for the opposite reason. Most people around me say that I never look like I care about my achievements or decent life, even though I should take great joy and pride like they would. They also said that they'd rather expect such attitude from someone who is in a hopeless situation and where "not caring" is the only solution to go numb and not feel pain. You on the other hand seem to have followed a different path in general. More on the follow up chap:

9) I did not follow god and good things happened. I followed god and my life fell apart, and I continued looking for truth and I had to give up everything I owned. (my dad found out i was staying with my uncle (a year or so before this) and he loaded his truck up with everything I owned posters off the wall emptied the drawers bed everying toys mags books games tv everything in one truck load and dumped it on my uncles front lawn.. in the rain by the morning everything was destroyed. what was of value was stolen that was the first tie I was asked to give up everything and follow him.. and kept following till it looked like there was no way back. to the point my uncle was not going to be able to help me this time either (he was going through a divorce during the time my sister and i was on the outs) i was so far out (making 4.00 an hour sweeping floors with a kid sister to feed and school) i did not see any way back.. So God sent someone to show me. I followed the plan and everything he promises has come true.. so far..


and again.. my 'reward' is not the stuff I have.. the business the responsibilities.. that is my job that is what service in the lord looks like. this is the job as a slave of God progresses into ans away from (meaning my tasks will continue to mature as I do spiritually.) they just so happen to look like worldly success and prosperity. Don't get me wrong taking a week off to design your dream home was a very nice 'perk' but I also know how much more quality can be found in life love and family when money is scarce. I see the trade off of a big house where everyone has their own space where as the constant closeness and interactivity a small house and a big family brings. While the big house may be more desirable spiritually it is not 'better for you for a family.'

After what sounds like an unfortunate tale (according to my view of un/fortunate), you stated that line in red. I want to confirm a few things about that particular sentence, as the practical details elude me:

1) Who was that someone that god supposedly sent you? Was it the guy who loaned you the 25k$?
2) Why are you so sure it was god (or his messenger/angel)? Why couldn't it have been a random guy? With all the weird shit that happens in life and all the "unusual" people that surround us, why is that particular man so much more special and worth to be assumed to be a godsent? Why couldn't it have been a person like my auntie?
3) What plan did you follow? Was it a plan you devised and improvised on your own after receiving the money, or was something that the "someone" suggested to you?
4) What were you promised? How did these promises come to being? Are you sure they became reality because of god and not just because of you?

10) says someone who can not imagine a life without freedom of complete moblity. Just because you live with 4 active limbs doesn't mean your total existance will be better...

For instance say there is indeed a god, and your 4 limbs and the freedom they bring fools you into thinking you've earned everything you have thus no God and as a result you miss out on eternal life. Now let say a guy without limbs learns to depend on God for everything. Who's total existence will be better? one who suffers 50 60 years and is born into eternity with a strong relationship with God.. or is it better to live 100 years in complete mobility to wake up to judgement and eternal death?

I know the lazy intellect in you wants to back out and say 'but drich I don't believe in god so I do not have to reconcile this 'what if.' but here's the thing sport.. when you said that's nice for you but what of the kid who was born without... You are presupposing God is real and has blessed me so you demanded an answer for the one who's blessing did not look like a blessing to you.

That is correct. I can't imagine a life with such heavy impairments. I can already barely find a reason to live but my survival instinct keeps me from killing myself; so while I'm alive I just maximize all the activities that bring me excitement, satisfaction, peace of mind or pleasure, while minimizing painful, annoying or boring circumstances. Luckily I am in such condition where I can easily achieve and maintain the current status and so I keep on living. 


But if something very nasty happened to me such as being cut in half or becoming blind (which would make 80% of my activities impossible), then I would most likely find a way out of this misery through suicide. Why should I suffer pointlessly in that case? Just out of the "hope" that there will be a nice afterlife for me? Who gives me this certainty? What if I just end up prolonging that misery for nothing?

I will give you my answer to your question, as I've already asked and pondered this myself many many times: I'd rather live nicely for 50-60 years the present life I know and I'm somewhat sure of (as I wasn't given anything else upon which to base my ideas) rather than suffer 100 years in the hope that some mystical being will grant me a nice afterlife. This is my answer until further evidence shows up. 

At this point you may have picked up on the fact that I don't really care about life and that I'm quite positive that nothing really matters in life, so in turn you could ask me "Why are you so confident and positive that nothing matters and that there is nothing afterwards?"

I have an answer to that too. As I stated in my very first post, I'm an agnostic. I am not certain of what's the truth and the only reality I can try to understand is the physical reality I perceive. What happens when a living being dies in this reality? Its body decomposes and is transformed. It doesn't stop existing, it just transforms. Now, where does our conscience or awareness originate from? That is a question that is still being debated. Scientists understood that whatever it is, is in strict correlation with our brain which acts as the main central. Our brain works by sending signals between neurotransmitters. Any damage specifically to the brain brings impairment to our mind, ability to remember or to reason because these signals get hindered. Is this a conclusive proof that our "conscience" or "soul" or whatever resides exclusively inside the brain? No. But it's a nice hint.

Now, what do you suppose happens when we die and our brain is dispersed in the environment as atoms and molecules? All the neural contacts and links that allowed us to think, reason, remember and "feel feelings", are interrupted and separated. What previously were our brain particles get transformed and recombined into something else. Perhaps they will form a plant, perhaps they will form the shell of a crustacean, maybe they will be swept even further in space, or maybe they'll re-enter another human body. And this cycle will repeat itself with no real goal. It just happens. From these observations, I am somewhat inclined to think that after death there is nothing. This is my theory about life.

But well, I don't have further evidence, so it will remain just my own speculation. Until further evidence shows up (as I highlighted in my previous answer), I will stick to this speculation that to me sounds the most likely and reasonable. 

As you can see, I have no issue in admitting that I don't possess all evidence yet. I don't see anything wrong in admitting that we don't know yet. But if you come on strong and confident that you have found the truth, of course I'll ask you for some kind of evidence. The same evidence I expect out of myself. No less no more. 

If at the end of the day it turns out you were right, then I will accept my fate. I have no regrets. Taking into account what I was given, I don't consider myself in the "wrong" for not believing. I lived life according to my convinctions and philosophy, I made friends and people like me, so if I won't be able to uncover the truth in time, I'll happily depart with my current ideas. It's fine by me.

Following up on the next points, you can anticipate what the answers will be:

11) Better enter the kingdom mamed/missing a hand eye or foot than enter hell whole. God is playing the long game not what is good for you now. God's concern is doing what it will take to ensure eternal life. this should be evident by his willingness to sacrifice his son.

You state it all of this as if it was unquestionable truth. They are assumptions not backed up by any evidence (please provide it if you possess it). What do you know about god's concern? How are you so sure that Christ was his son and not a random dude? And moving on to more common and banal questions: why should god make all this process so tedious and vague and difficult? What's the point? What is he trying to achieve with this? He created humans, but they didn't function as he expected and so he threw them out and made up some confused instructables about how to make them "fix" themselves up and go back to his place. Why all of this?

12) Being literally labeled mentally disabled for the 1st half of my life, I can most certainly attest these what you call failings are really blessings. when view through the scope of eternity. Yours is the handicap if what you are given has your life end at the end of your 75 or 80 years. this life is but a vapor here one moment and gone the next. what fool would invest in something so fleeting? 

I addressed this at point 7) and 10) but I'll repeat myself. I'm only given this physical life upon which I can build a framework with rules and that I can try to understand. From what I gathered so far, I'm inclined to think that there is nothing after biological life, as most findings seem to hint to the fact that our conscience resides in our brain and that once our brain stops working, all our reasoning, memories etc are gone. Where? I don't know. Presumably nowhere. If they were indeed just the results of electrical signals in our brain, then they just stop. In the event that my conscience/soul/whatever still persits after biological life in the form of scattered memories wandering across the universe, then I'm fine with that too.

And now I'll ask you: "what fool would invest in an eternety that is not guaranteed?". If there was evidence that an afterlife exists, then I would change my mind. But to the best of my knowledge, there isn't and so far none of you has shown it.

13) Who says mine is a reward? To me it is a term of service. I sold myself into slavery in order to 'earn' the right to be seen as a son (not salvation as that can not be earned) however our place or status in heaven is. I sever god as a teacher as a business owner as a tool to be used in any way he sees fit. In this life I am first in the next I am promised to be last/ to serve those in whom you look down on now. those who did not have the same opportunities i did. So that one day I might be lifted up as a son.. When you speak you invision only what is directly in front of you. you speak one or maybe two years down the road. I'm establishing roots in the next life.

Ok, you don't see it as a reward in this physical life but more as a condition for later on. But how do you know that you are serving this god? Again (in practice), did he show up again in some form and told you that you are doing a good job? How do you know what he sees fit? Does he send you monthly assignments that you carry out? How does this happen in reality? 

And you are partially correct about what I see, but I'll rectify it a bit: I see what I see, I know what I know. And now back at you: how do you see "beyond"? How do you know there is a next life? Is this perhaps already your 2nd or 3rd life and so you are already experienced with this process?

14) that would have been my lot as my mother fled from one of those places. but what of it/ Jesus was born and lived in an occupied country.. I know western mind do not think they can function under the rule of another, but trust me it just becomes life. Once can still serve God while living in a place devoid of personal freedom. Not a big deal. the only issue i see here is you no long see service as a reward you see only the work. What I am saying is under God service is it's own reward. meaning you will find contentment no matter what God would have you do despite the envy the secular world may have in your job. And in the end if you are truly happy it does not matter what the circumstance is. God is fulfillment beyond circumstance.

I do understand the concept you are trying to convey, as it's similar to what you may feel towards a loved one. For example, when you are helping your wife out or teaching your kids, you don't care about the energy and investment you are putting in, you are happy knowing that you are helping them and making them happy. Correct me if I misunderstood. However, a wife or a kid are physical entities that you perceive in this reality, they are there, they are hard evidence. But how can you love and be happy serving someone whose existence is not even proven (please provide evidece if you have it)?

15) War is your immorality not God's. The bible is full of example of warriors who openly and greatly served God. King David is a great example. Moses while not the typical king or general did indeed lead many campaigns joshua his predecessor again fought many battles. Saul/Paul of the new testament wared against Christ and christianity and God saw him as an asset and turned him. being a fighter does not = unforgivable sin. That is the fake morality of popular culture speaking not God.

Who spoke about morality? Please don't bring in other topics that were never mentionend or alluded to or meant to enter the scene. If you read my very first post, you'd know by now that I'm a nihilist. To my eyes there is no inherent morality. Morality is something man-made and subjective, so leave it out of the scene. Here I am talking about kids who are harmed physically and forced to kill each other (reads: hurting and suffering physical pain). War may not be "immoral" for  god, but it still brings pain and sufference, it impairs life, it makes it more difficult and annoying to live and understand, it leaves lingering traumas. How is any of this a blessing, considering that this perceived reality is all we have? It just sounds like harming each other for the sake of something whose existence is not even a thing.

16) A talent here in not a skill but a measure of gold that equated to one years average salary. So when God give some one like me many 'talents'/money or skill much more us required of me. if someone born in an area with no knowledge of Christ can be equated to someone with very few talents. therefore less is expected. not nothing as the parable warns just not as much as the person given 5

Christ also say I am the way truth and life no one come to the father but through him which means it is not religion that saves us meaning we do not have a prescribed path persay. that Jesus himself is our judge and it is christ and christ alone that will determine our fate based on what he gave us to work with/opportunities we had.

That sounds convenient for him and unfair for others:
1) First of all, what's the point of all of this (I asked this before, but well)
2) Assuming the first point is somewhat addressed, under these conditions, it would ironically be more convenient to have nothing, so that he doesn't expect much while it is unconvenient to have a lot because otherwise he'll expect a lot. Why couldn't he give everyone the same amount? That would have been fair... or maybe he doesn't like boring settings? Perhaps it's more entertaining to spice things up by creating unbalance? 
3) I may sound skeptical about christ's judgement because I'm used to my country's justice which is perverse. Getting involved with the law here only means losing. Even if you are right, you just end up losing money and energy in the process while obtaining nothing, so most of the time it's just wiser to not get involved at all. God created man to his image and likeness, right? What tells me he's any different? Actually, if we are his spitting image, why is he intangible, invisible etc? We aren't like that, but he is, but we are like him, yet we are not. Which is it?

17) my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

This is always in the scope that there is an afterlife, is this correct?

18) What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

This point is a bit confusing. So everyone before his sacrifice (which supposedly nullified all men's sins up to that point in time) were discounted of judgement, while all who came after are not justified anymore? Also, your last two sentences are contradictory: first you say that our worthiness is not based on our deeds, then you say that it's based on who we are... but don't our deeds and actions define who we are? 

19) actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

Thanks for clarifying this point. It always puzzled me but noone before was able to answer me. Even if I'm still skeptical about this book or its presumed purpose, at least I can understand better some points now. Thanks.

 

20) not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?

This brings again the practical issues. You talk about "earnestly meeting God or an angel". How does that happen in practice? How do I know or confirm it's him and not a random encounter? How can I have a conversation with this mister? I've already tried before, even went for other ways, but it just doesn't manifest. You say you need to approach him on his terms, but again, these terms are just like badly written and vague instructables. Also, if his terms are anything like Godscreated said (that logic in reverse where evidence comes after believing), then there is just no way someone like me can engage god. It would just mean to turn off my brain.

And once again, I did not dismiss you, otherwise I wouldn't have asked more questions and replied to this waterfall of text. I am genuinely trying to understand better, and when something smells I say it, so that you can pick up on what exactly I don't understand and perhaps clarify.

Hope you'll take the time to read and reply to this as well.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

So many long posts, I'll go in order (you can skip my answers to other people if you wish).

@ T0 Th3 M4X
1) Here you can find a more general assessment of the big bang theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang . For each chapter, you can find the corresponding reference which will often redirect you to paid journals. I have free access to them through my institution, but for the average citizen this knowledge is otherwise out of reach. This website https://openaccessbutton.org/ lets you selectively browse open access (free) articles. Otherwise, you can use *cough cough, shi-hub, cough cough to kinda unlock any paper by putting in the doi.

2,3,4) seem resolved

5) So basically this is the "infamous" cross-road that separates a believer from a skeptic: you choose to be optimistic and trust this person that claims that book to be the word of God, while I remain wary and distrustful and keep researching and questioning everything. 


@ Godscreated
Even though you said you won't reply to this thread anymore (and then what was the point?), you didn't exclude other communication forms (eg through PMs) and so I'll answer to your points anyways for the sake of it:

1) Most of those people were Christians looking to explain God's creation. The reason you only experience the present physical reality is because it's all you have. until you come to know God it will be all you will ever know. Christians like myself have come to know the creator God and in that we can have an understanding from Him if we seek it. Many Christians blab about God did it without ever knowing what they are talking about, but the sensible Christian will set down and explain things to you. But if you use the references about God that you did in this post to me you will find most Christians pushing back at you for not having respect for their beliefs especially when you have no proof they are wrong

Why are these believers so easily offended by my lack of understanding of their belief? Should I feel offended every time one of my students destroys math and chemistry in the tests I give them? Should I feel offended every time my granma asks me to solve a proportion for a cake recipe with my "science things"? I don't have any problem explaining the science I know and I have no problems admitting what I don't know. Why must they be so defensive about it?

2) I guess it might seem like magic to those who can't understand even to some Christians. However the correct word their is omnipotence, "all powerful." By the way if you are not as afraid as most of the atheist here you should seriously look into creation science you just might find yourself finding the truth you say you're looking for, if you are not afraid to.

I've already looked into it, but the problem is always the same: lack of evidence. It's speculation just like unknown science is, and is as worthy. Sure, I may feel more or less inclined towards one of the two, but it will remain a gut feeling until conclusive evidence shows up. Probably the difference is that I don't risk believing something that may be wrong and so I keep questioning it until conclusive evidence is shown. If no such evidence ever shows up, then I'll die questioning. 

Anyways, if you possess some particular creation science article/page you want to share, feel free to send it to me via PM. 

3) Since I can't and want speak for other religions I will speak to the case of Christianity. Yes you have missed out by rejecting God and yes you have rejected God, you see there is no middle ground, you either believe or reject. Some people play at Christianity but they too have rejected Christ. Again if you want to truly get somewhere in understanding the truth of God from others, words like magical want help you, alienating people with disrespect will put you on the outside looking in. Like I said earlier find a Christian who will set down with you and explain what they know, but if proof is the only thing you will except then you are never going to get there. God gives proof to those who come to Christ and ask Him to show them truth, he will do it in His time for your good.

So you are saying the two are mutually exclusive? This poses a big problem. First of all:
How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up? I've already tried that and nothing happened. Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either. Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

Being such an inquisitive guy, I've always explored and investigated everything. I had the most fun when I was a kid and was researching aliens and weird happenings because they were.... weird, unusual, unpredictable. But the more I learnt, the more disenchanted I became with the world until everything pretty much lost its charme as I came to understand it. In a way I wanted for those "things" to be somewhat real, because they'd have made my life more curious and fun. I tried to believe in them, but nothing worked.

While studying chemistry, which allowed me to understand how everything works even more, I also investigated psychology. I had read of people who had visions and hallucinations about angels or god and I was curious as to how they had them. Were they real? Were their testimony reliable? I read some case studies and came across the word "autosuggestion" which basically states that if you drive all your thoughts towards an idea so hard, you may actually convince yourself of it and even see it materializing. I read of schizophrenia, studied it in parallel, asked some university professor about it, and learnt that these hallucinations do not extend just to angels/gods but to pretty much anything. From imaginary friends to devils, monsters or just voices, annoying repetitive whispers, and what not. And so, how can you really differentiate at this point? What if anyone who claims to have met got just got caught in autosuggestion? What if what they saw was just the materialization of THEIR idea of god? Have you read about John Nash or watched the movie about him? 

4) Benevolent, show me in the Bible where that word or any phrase concerning that word is located. God is many awesome things but benevolent isn't one of them. God through His grace will show or give benevolence to individuals, but to be benevolent in the same way He is truth and love would limit Him in His work.

I'm not speaking of the bible in particular but any holy book. But if you so much want to cling to irrelevant details as this, then here you go: 
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction...verses.htm
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Benevolence
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus...lence-.htm
http://voiceoftruthblog.com/the-benevolence-of-god
https://crossexamined.org/the-omnibenevolence-of-god/

5) When you use the words you have to describe the Christian God and then say you are open to the truth, well, you betray yourself and show that you only engage in discussions with Christians as a pass time, you even said so in this post to me. There is a world of evidence for God and the creation, but only to those who will take their blinders off and actually seek the truth. Of coarse we are confident, Paul tells the believer that we can have such confidence when we trust in God, I do and I have that confidence, it is unshakable. There is no fast track to the truth, it takes an open mind, patience and trust in God. I'm a questioning Christian and through that God has taught me many things, I ask and if He desires for me to have the answer I will receive it and I have been shown many amazing things. Why me, because I have trusted my life to God through Christ and want to sincerely know the real truths. You can't get truths from God until you accept Him as the truth and that my friend means accepting Christ as your savior. Sorry if you do not like that but that's the way it has to be, it is God's creation man has spoiled after all

The order in which you put these operations is backwards. You first get the evidence and then believe it. You don't believe it and then get the evidence. Also re-read what you wrote and try to put yourself in my shoes: what should I exactly understand of what you described? You talked about trusting in god but when I read about it, it's described in such vague and general terms, it's invisible, intangible, everywhere and nowhere.... I just picture nothingness with this description. What did god teach you? How did he do it? Did he materialize (and how did it look? Was it a cloud or an old man?) and what did he tell you? Or you didn't see anything but heard a whisper in your ear? Or neither that and he just materialized in your mind and thoughts? How does all of this happen? You talk about it as if it was something normal and ordinary, but to someone who never experienced such thing it's impossible to picture. And what does it mean to see Christ as my savior? What is he saving me from? Why should I ask to be saved? And again, when you say you get the truth when you accept god as the truth, that's again backwards logic. From a purely logical point of view, that order is in reverse.

6) There you go again, far fetched story, you're betraying yourself again. Science will never explain everything because the science that you speak of is man made and man manipulated. God knows all, omniscient, He has all the truths, things that would blow our minds if explained to us, things we could never understand. About that "yet," I say the same thing when it comes to things we have not been able to explain that's in the Bible, so my yet holds the same weight as your's does. I have explained some things to you now it's up to you to search out the truth and it want happen on this forum, I've been here many years and I know what happens here. I came back from a rest that I've not finished to see what was happening and had no intentions of being in any discussions, I decided to for this one thread, but now I'm finished and will continue with my rest, yes that means I will have no further discussion with you about this thread, good luck in your search, i hope you can find a way to open your mind up to find the real truth.

You state with such certainty and confidence that science will never explain everything. How do you know? Till some century ago it was unthinkable to fly or reach the moon and yet here we are and such mysteries are out of the way. What is exactly stopping science? Give it time. 

Also, you say that god knows everything and has all truths but if he explained them to us, our minds would be blown. Then I'd like to tell him that he can go ahead and blow my mind. His followers may not consider themselves up to the task, but I'll take up the challenge and welcome any mindblowing truth. When you talk about "things we would never understand", I'd reply "speak for yourself". That's totally not the attitude of someone who wants to know the truth, but that of someone who has given up.

7) Thus the problem with modern science, it doesn't seek absolute truth only that which supports what a given scientist wants to believe. As I said to Scientia, I will not be engaging in further discussions in this thread, I have a rest to finish.

That's not how science works. When I research something, I start from an hypothesis. Then I carry out an experiment and if it does work out, then it just works, I was right. If it doesn't work out, then I don't go and falsify data to claim it was right. I investigate what went wrong and I study and study until I understand why. If I make a mistake along the way, thinking I proved something right when I did not, then I will go and correct my mistake and reshape my thesis. What I want to believe has nothing to do with it.

@ Drich
The first part of your post has a logic and I can agree to a certain degree. I did have confirmation from some honest believer who admitted that he'd rather believe there was some nice afterlife for good people than accept that all the wrongs he endured in life would have no effect or consequence afterwards.

So religion chosen as a way to justify the injustice of life, a way to feel somehow rewarded and not feel guilt. A longing for feeling loved, wanted, rewarded, justified, glorified. But that's not the same as researching the truth. And the truth may as well be that indeed nothing really matters. I do understand that some people find refuge in religion due to their impossibility to live aimlessly or without a truth or superior goal to work towards to, and so they cling to whatever claimed truth they find. But I want to stay positive and think that not everyone is like that.

About the second half of your post however, that's very subjective and sounds more like a way to justify(and why should you?) a success here and there in life. The thing is, I've had relatively nice success in life and career and health so far. I won many prizes for my age in my field, never had any serious illness (never went to the hospital in the past 23y), never had anything very wrong going on in my life. I would consider myself lucky since I was born in a decent family that gave me an education, but I also have my merits because I worked hard towards my goals and never gave up. My determination rewarded me, not some weird entity. 

But In parallel, I could also see many other people who were born in even nicer conditions and were overall even "luckier". I always tried to earn things on my own, without asking others for help, but I also saw people getting credit for other people work and never getting any kind of bad consequence out of it. I also saw unlucky people born in violent families and enduring all sorts of wrongdoings and eventually either rise up or fall even lower. Sometimes I would feel annoyed at the former but lucky compared to the latter. In time I just stopped caring.

What I learnt so far is that nothing really matters. It doesn't matter if you are a horrible person who exploits others, you can still live a nice life and have 0 troubles, just like you can be the kindest and most gentle person, and have all sort of impeding illnesses and die at a young age in agony. There exist all kinds of combinations of situations, I'm one of those combination just like you.

You said that you trusted in god and were rewarded. That's nice for you. Now what about that kid who is born without legs and arms? What about that other kid who is born with down syndrome or is born blind and deaf? Just "bad luck" and let's shrug it off? Did they have any chance at any point to trust in god and get the same nice reward you got? What about those kids born in countries where war rages? They are taught from infancy to embrace arms and go to war. What about them? What about those kids who are kept in ignorance from birth? You had a choice, you chose to believe and supposedly were rewarded. They never had a choice, what about them? But let's go back in time a bit. What about all those people before christianity? Let's just forget the past 50.000 years of humanity (300.000 if we consider homo sapiens in general or 15 M years if we consider our ancestors as well)? Let's just swipe them under the carpet and forget they ever happened and let's start anew with the humans of 0 AC?

It's easy when you consider just yourself and your situation. You can fit all that happens in your life with patterns of any book, but try to expand and see how it applies to everyone else. Physical laws work because they are always valid in any circumstance. If they stopped working even once, then that would be a huge hole in the theory and would need to be revisited or it would become invalid.

1. Thanks for sharing the reference and I know what you mean about access to references.  When I was in college, I had access to paper journals from probably every major science journal, plus had access to an online database.  I can still get something if I really want to read it, but a lot of times I just don't because of the fees involved.  Twas much nicer when it was all free to me.

5. I don't view it as "separation."  Just in view I suppose.  I don't use that as an opportunity to isolate others.  At least I try no to.  You are right though, I do tend to be optimistic, but I think that's the right approach to take in life with just about anything.  "Hope for the best, and plan for the worst."

[Scientia]

That's it? It ends with my unanswered questions?

@ Drich
I put effort in replying to your every point, left some time to answer but I can see this sinking.

Don't know what I even expected.

[Peebothuhlu]

... Stuff...

 

 



Not at work.