(March 28, 2019 at 11:47 am)pocaracas Wrote: Wut?!
What does morality have to do with math and the existence of an elephant?
Because like the answer to 1+1, and the existence of an elephant, it’s not a matter of agreement but a recognition of truth. The wrongness of torturing babies just for fun, is as objectively true as 1+1 =2, and the existence of an elephant at my local zoo.
Quote:Perhaps you're right.... perhaps I'm right. How can we discern which of us is right?
Well I’m of the view that I’m right, and as so when I counter those that are wrong, I tend to ask myself what motivates and sustains their false beliefs. There’s hardly a remotely convincing argument, or compelling one otherwise. The best I can do is try and understand those arguments, and indicate why they’re not particularly compelling, and perhaps not even for those who make them. That they’re more held for the sake of sustaining disbelief, and not because they’re anymore believable to those who hold them then me.
I don’t know how to convince you that you’re wrong, but I’m willing to explore the questions with you regardless.
Quote:You say it's "a cute counter argument", but we have no real way of finding out how these things happened, so we have to go with our best guesses. And these best guesses are informed by our perception of the world. Yours include the possibility of what I'd describe as magic yielded by a single individual entity, while mine tries to come up with guesses that require only regular physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, etc... While all these are enough to account for all that we see, there's no reason why we should include the magical realm in our arsenal of guesses, is there?
I don’t deny any physics, chemistry, or biology, i also don’t deny my fundamental experiences of reality. I may perceive reality through my mind, but those things i experience as external to myself, i recognize as aspects of reality.
I experience the wrongness of the holocaust, as external to myself, not as articulation of my feelings, or as the opinions of my society, but as part of objective reality, outside of my mind, just as the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the shape of the ball. I recognize it as an objective truth. If there’s a supposed objective reality absent of such moral elements, than that’s not a reality any of us know or can know.
Someone trying to convince me that objective morality does not exist, is like someone try to convince me that other minds outside of my own don’t exist, or that objective truth doesn’t exist.
You rely on physics, science, etc.. to make excuses to try and deny your own experiences of reality, not because those excuses actually make sense, or are true, but because they provide you just enough to sustain you disbelief, it’s driven by a desire not to believe, than anything else.