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(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: That's what suspending the belief means. You "pretend" or delude yourself that what you're seeing isn't real. People will go to all kinds of lengths to dellude themselves (in the example getting rid of all mirrors in the house).
Mirrors are just one example when you're reminded of the truth.
Christians are simply lying to themselves and the only honest thing about it is their desire: they want to lie to themselves aka they want to believe.
I mean if you're a Christian and you're sick you lie to yourself that Jesus is healing you although you're taking medication. Meaning you're willingly lying to yourself because you believe that Jesus is healing you and yet you don't stop taking medication because you know, although you won't admit, that it's the medicine that are making you healthy.
the reason you believe that the only honest thing about Christian belief is their desire is because you discount any evidence for that belief. Read this: Scientists are simply lying to themselves, and the only honest thing about it is their desire; they want to lie to themselves aka they want to believe xxx. Doesn't make sense does it? Sure scientists could have some biases affecting their results but we all assume their results are based on observations and measurable facts in peer review. Belief does require desire, I'll grant you that. However, your assumption that that can't be based off of experience, evidence, study and that it is 100% about self-delusion is incorrect, IMO. At this point it seems to be a bit of a so we will just have to agree to disagree.
(May 7, 2019 at 10:59 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: A. No. The words were "I traveled on speaking teams, preached to thousands of teenagers at a time, wrote blogs, was published, formed curriculum, taught workshops, was an up-and-comer reforming my denomination. The whole time hoping at some point it would click, and become true for me. He did admit to having doubts and questions, which is absolutely fine. He also admitted it wasn't true for him and that he later ascribed "faking it to make it".
B. Doubt and not knowing if something is true, are absolutely fine. Only in the anti-theists view that all Christians are illogical or unreasonable is questioning your belief not allowed. I was always allowed to ask questions and prompted to, and I didn't always find the answers, or the answers I wanted.Christians can harbor doubts and questions, that's rarely what causes people to leave the church, IMO. Most I've spoken with cite particular attitudes, people, dogma or a trauma as their reason. Bold for emphasis again, I'm not stating all Christians who have doubts are fake, just that this guy was by his own admission.
So anyone who plows ahead with trying to be a Christian despite having serious doubts is a fake Christian. I'm agreeing with you. How many actual Christians do you suppose that leaves? Since I view Christianity (and revealed religion in general) as an overall minus for society, I am happy to support that all the 'fake it till you make it' Christians are fakes who aren't even really Christians. How do we get the ministers on board? And can I quote you when someone confesses to me that they're not sure they believe but they're trying?
SMH, dude, are you seriously misstating my position again. One more time clearly, anyone who publicly admits to faking being a Christian is a fake Christian simply by definition. Having doubts is not un-Christian, as even Jesus had doubts. Being a "True Christian" isn't about believing beyond all doubt. I'm not aware of anyone who "tries to believe" in anything without deluding themselves. Believing anything isn't about being without doubt. I believe that the tree in my front yard is still there. That doesn't mean it is, or that I'm correct on what type of tree it is. I can try and believe that it's not there, but it won't change the fact it probably is when I walk out my front door. It's a process of trying to follow Christ's example in everything. Just because you have doubts or even act un-Christian sometimes, or step out of God's will doesn't make you not a Christian. And yes you can quote me, as long as it's accurate.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari