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May 3, 2019 at 11:34 am (This post was last modified: May 3, 2019 at 11:35 am by Fake Messiah.)
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: But if I stated I believe that I am one, that acceptance is real 100% real, even if is delusional.
That is my point because you would be aware it is a lie, as you said
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: I could "pretend" that I was a 7'5" latino basketball star. It's not true and would require a significant amount of suspension of belief to fully convince myself. But if I stated I believe that I am one, that acceptance is real 100% real, even if is delusional.
Because every time you look at yourself in the mirror you would see the truth.
For instance there is a good example of what I'm talking about in documentary "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief" where you can observe ex scientologists fanatically defending their scientology and then afterwards like they're out of hypnosis. There is something in people that they will spite even common sense if they feel victimized or some other similar reason.
I mean sure, maybe in the past you could say that Christians were honest in believing that world was few thousand years old, that some man saved all animals from a global flood in a boat, virgin birth etc. because people knew very little of how nature works and that's why it is said today that "God is dead" and believers in God are gravediggers.
Not to mention other lies that we mentioned that Christian leaders say to their flock like Obamacare is nazism - you know all of a sudden they believe it, no, they just accept it although they know it's not true.
May 3, 2019 at 12:36 pm (This post was last modified: May 3, 2019 at 12:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's a combination of sunk cost and inextricable benefit. It no longer matters to christians that their magic book got everything wrong. They still want punch and pie in the sky, and consider the trashy things they've said and committed themselves to on account of it.
The only way out is through, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
May 3, 2019 at 3:26 pm (This post was last modified: May 3, 2019 at 3:33 pm by Drich.)
(May 2, 2019 at 1:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(May 2, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote: My whole life is a testament to the evidence of God as nothing I have accomplished could I have done alone.
Direct evidence 1) witnessed my own judgement, experienced hell first hand.
2) Sat face to face with a literal messenger/angel and had a conversation discussing my past present and future service.
30lived and witnessed everything the angel predicted come true.
3) God has also provided me the information needed to allow any of you to also find him in such a way to provide you everything you need to establish and maintain your own relationship so you too can have all the 'evidence you personally need' to believe via proof rather than faith alone.
Meaning I ca not prove God exists but I know God can and promises to do so if you simply seek him out on his terms and not your own unlike the preacher in the OP.
Also as per the last thread on God's protection, he offers none. as it is said if God did not keep Jesus his own son from harm why would he then keep us protected from the evil of this world?
No it isn't. It merely means you have had a lifetime of liking what you believe. So what. Plenty of Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus keep their religions their entire life too.
Like it or not sport eye witness testimony is still evidence. Eye witness testimony is so strong it can send people to be executed or stave them from execution, yet to you it is to be dismissed. well here's the thing. I'm not alone. there are trillions over thousands of years who record similar experiences. what honest non biased judge could refuse to hear or consider the testimony of trillions over the course of thousands of years as being trivial as you pretend it is?
And here is the kicker to the whole reason this religion still lives.. because not one of us is special, that anyone who seeks God in the way he has commanded will ultimately find him. meaning the evidence is less of a telling of what has happened but directions to how to make it happen for yourself.
(May 2, 2019 at 1:46 pm)wyzas Wrote: Never a true christian, got it.
never a true christian lives..
Christ is the only one able to award us such a title. And has promised to do so upon our judgement, after this life is over.
So All True christians do get it otherwise they would be judged unworthy.
(May 2, 2019 at 2:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I disagree with the thread title. Christianity is not 'fake'. It may be 'untrue', but it's as real as a belt in the gob.
And I think the 'ex pastor' is a troll.
Boru
he is far too focused on his accomplishments to establish himself a pastor.
these are merits men look for and are meaningless to anyone with a spiritual life.
So why then judge your spiritual experience by 'things' we as christian are not supposed to value? This guy's pedigree approach reeks of what atheist think makes a pastor a teacher of God, and not what God looks for.
Meaning if he as a pastor with such a pedigree at this point in his career still does not understand God hides himself from the learn-ed and wise... then he is not who he says he is.
May 6, 2019 at 9:11 am (This post was last modified: May 6, 2019 at 9:22 am by Mister Agenda.)
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote:
(May 3, 2019 at 9:38 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: "Or...<enter taylor swift> Cause a fakers gonna fake fake fake fake fake.... since he was in 8th grade." --tackattack
And for the record, I put zero words in your mouth.
You are correct. You never claimed I said those things. You just attested that I jump on the bandwagon of railroading all "fake Christians"
OK and how is my calling out one self-professed admitted faker ..
A)judging someone unfairly?
B)Making biased generalizations about all people in that same group?
A) He isn't a self-professed faker. You're putting words in HIS mouth. He admitted to having a doubt.
B) If you're going to put words in his mouth, why not everyone else who admits to having a doubt? Because in his case the doubts won in the end? If your accusation of fakery is correct. he was never a Christian. And neither is any other professed Christian who harbors a doubt or misgiving. It isn't fair to swing in at the end and say he was always a fake, and give all the other doubters a free pass because they're still faking it.
It's not eyewitness testimony anymore when you're reporting what other people say they saw. It's hearsay.
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: I do, if it comes up in conversation. People's sex lives usually don't concern me and aren't usually topics I delve into.
What have your views got to do with the statement you made? You weren't talking about your tap dancing version of christianity but doctrine
You stated ....
Quote:It is not a doctrine of Christian faith to judge others though.
My views are that I am a Christian and based in my understanding of popular Christian dogma from personal experience and study that Christians are not taught to judge other people. That would be reserved for God, and we are to love even our enemies.
(May 3, 2019 at 11:34 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: But if I stated I believe that I am one, that acceptance is real 100% real, even if is delusional.
That is my point because you would be aware it is a lie, as you said
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: I could "pretend" that I was a 7'5" latino basketball star. It's not true and would require a significant amount of suspension of belief to fully convince myself. But if I stated I believe that I am one, that acceptance is real 100% real, even if is delusional.
Because every time you look at yourself in the mirror you would see the truth.
For instance there is a good example of what I'm talking about in documentary "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief" where you can observe ex scientologists fanatically defending their scientology and then afterwards like they're out of hypnosis. There is something in people that they will spite even common sense if they feel victimized or some other similar reason.
I mean sure, maybe in the past you could say that Christians were honest in believing that world was few thousand years old, that some man saved all animals from a global flood in a boat, virgin birth etc. because people knew very little of how nature works and that's why it is said today that "God is dead" and believers in God are gravediggers.
Not to mention other lies that we mentioned that Christian leaders say to their flock like Obamacare is nazism - you know all of a sudden they believe it, no, they just accept it although they know it's not true.
That's what suspending the belief means. You "pretend" or delude yourself that what you're seeing isn't real. People will go to all kinds of lengths to dellude themselves (in the example getting rid of all mirrors in the house). You suspend your belief until you can convince yourself that it's more true than false. Belief can be an integrated acceptance or a force of will. Mentally breaking a prisoner down or abusing a victim till they show Stockholm syndrome is a good example. At one point they believed that the abuser is bad, then they believed the abuser was good. The facts didn't change, but the emotional impact of those psychological inputs, changed the belief from one belief to another. Neither were fake belief. Logically we can see that one was more objectively true than another on the outside but from the individual perspective both were true.
I'll have to check out that documentary because I'm not seeing where we're disconnecting at. Side note- Any preacher that gives political advice from the pulpit should have their congregations tax exempt status pulled, as that's illegal.
(May 6, 2019 at 9:11 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(May 3, 2019 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: You are correct. You never claimed I said those things. You just attested that I jump on the bandwagon of railroading all "fake Christians"
OK and how is my calling out one self-professed admitted faker ..
A)judging someone unfairly?
B)Making biased generalizations about all people in that same group?
A) He isn't a self-professed faker. You're putting words in HIS mouth. He admitted to having a doubt.
B) If you're going to put words in his mouth, why not everyone else who admits to having a doubt? Because in his case the doubts won in the end? If your accusation of fakery is correct. he was never a Christian. And neither is any other professed Christian who harbors a doubt or misgiving. It isn't fair to swing in at the end and say he was always a fake, and give all the other doubters a free pass because they're still faking it.
It's not eyewitness testimony anymore when you're reporting what other people say they saw. It's hearsay.
A. No. The words were "I traveled on speaking teams, preached to thousands of teenagers at a time, wrote blogs, was published, formed curriculum, taught workshops, was an up-and-comer reforming my denomination. The whole time hoping at some point it would click, and become true for me. He did admit to having doubts and questions, which is absolutely fine. He also admitted it wasn't true for him and that he later ascribed "faking it to make it".
B. Doubt and not knowing if something is true, are absolutely fine. Only in the anti-theists view that all Christians are illogical or unreasonable is questioning your belief not allowed. I was always allowed to ask questions and prompted to, and I didn't always find the answers, or the answers I wanted.Christians can harbor doubts and questions, that's rarely what causes people to leave the church, IMO. Most I've spoken with cite particular attitudes, people, dogma or a trauma as their reason. Bold for emphasis again, I'm not stating all Christians who have doubts are fake, just that this guy was by his own admission.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
May 7, 2019 at 12:16 am (This post was last modified: May 7, 2019 at 12:17 am by Fake Messiah.)
(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: That's what suspending the belief means. You "pretend" or delude yourself that what you're seeing isn't real. People will go to all kinds of lengths to dellude themselves (in the example getting rid of all mirrors in the house).
Mirrors are just one example when you're reminded of the truth.
Christians are simply lying to themselves and the only honest thing about it is their desire: they want to lie to themselves aka they want to believe.
I mean if you're a Christian and you're sick you lie to yourself that Jesus is healing you although you're taking medication. Meaning you're willingly lying to yourself because you believe that Jesus is healing you and yet you don't stop taking medication because you know, although you won't admit, that it's the medicine that are making you healthy.
(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: A. No. The words were "I traveled on speaking teams, preached to thousands of teenagers at a time, wrote blogs, was published, formed curriculum, taught workshops, was an up-and-comer reforming my denomination. The whole time hoping at some point it would click, and become true for me. He did admit to having doubts and questions, which is absolutely fine. He also admitted it wasn't true for him and that he later ascribed "faking it to make it".
B. Doubt and not knowing if something is true, are absolutely fine. Only in the anti-theists view that all Christians are illogical or unreasonable is questioning your belief not allowed. I was always allowed to ask questions and prompted to, and I didn't always find the answers, or the answers I wanted.Christians can harbor doubts and questions, that's rarely what causes people to leave the church, IMO. Most I've spoken with cite particular attitudes, people, dogma or a trauma as their reason. Bold for emphasis again, I'm not stating all Christians who have doubts are fake, just that this guy was by his own admission.
So anyone who plows ahead with trying to be a Christian despite having serious doubts is a fake Christian. I'm agreeing with you. How many actual Christians do you suppose that leaves? Since I view Christianity (and revealed religion in general) as an overall minus for society, I am happy to support that all the 'fake it till you make it' Christians are fakes who aren't even really Christians. How do we get the ministers on board? And can I quote you when someone confesses to me that they're not sure they believe but they're trying?
(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: That's what suspending the belief means. You "pretend" or delude yourself that what you're seeing isn't real. People will go to all kinds of lengths to dellude themselves (in the example getting rid of all mirrors in the house).
Mirrors are just one example when you're reminded of the truth.
Christians are simply lying to themselves and the only honest thing about it is their desire: they want to lie to themselves aka they want to believe.
I mean if you're a Christian and you're sick you lie to yourself that Jesus is healing you although you're taking medication. Meaning you're willingly lying to yourself because you believe that Jesus is healing you and yet you don't stop taking medication because you know, although you won't admit, that it's the medicine that are making you healthy.
the reason you believe that the only honest thing about Christian belief is their desire is because you discount any evidence for that belief. Read this: Scientists are simply lying to themselves, and the only honest thing about it is their desire; they want to lie to themselves aka they want to believe xxx. Doesn't make sense does it? Sure scientists could have some biases affecting their results but we all assume their results are based on observations and measurable facts in peer review. Belief does require desire, I'll grant you that. However, your assumption that that can't be based off of experience, evidence, study and that it is 100% about self-delusion is incorrect, IMO. At this point it seems to be a bit of a so we will just have to agree to disagree.
(May 7, 2019 at 10:59 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(May 6, 2019 at 2:00 pm)tackattack Wrote: A. No. The words were "I traveled on speaking teams, preached to thousands of teenagers at a time, wrote blogs, was published, formed curriculum, taught workshops, was an up-and-comer reforming my denomination. The whole time hoping at some point it would click, and become true for me. He did admit to having doubts and questions, which is absolutely fine. He also admitted it wasn't true for him and that he later ascribed "faking it to make it".
B. Doubt and not knowing if something is true, are absolutely fine. Only in the anti-theists view that all Christians are illogical or unreasonable is questioning your belief not allowed. I was always allowed to ask questions and prompted to, and I didn't always find the answers, or the answers I wanted.Christians can harbor doubts and questions, that's rarely what causes people to leave the church, IMO. Most I've spoken with cite particular attitudes, people, dogma or a trauma as their reason. Bold for emphasis again, I'm not stating all Christians who have doubts are fake, just that this guy was by his own admission.
So anyone who plows ahead with trying to be a Christian despite having serious doubts is a fake Christian. I'm agreeing with you. How many actual Christians do you suppose that leaves? Since I view Christianity (and revealed religion in general) as an overall minus for society, I am happy to support that all the 'fake it till you make it' Christians are fakes who aren't even really Christians. How do we get the ministers on board? And can I quote you when someone confesses to me that they're not sure they believe but they're trying?
SMH, dude, are you seriously misstating my position again. One more time clearly, anyone who publicly admits to faking being a Christian is a fake Christian simply by definition. Having doubts is not un-Christian, as even Jesus had doubts. Being a "True Christian" isn't about believing beyond all doubt. I'm not aware of anyone who "tries to believe" in anything without deluding themselves. Believing anything isn't about being without doubt. I believe that the tree in my front yard is still there. That doesn't mean it is, or that I'm correct on what type of tree it is. I can try and believe that it's not there, but it won't change the fact it probably is when I walk out my front door. It's a process of trying to follow Christ's example in everything. Just because you have doubts or even act un-Christian sometimes, or step out of God's will doesn't make you not a Christian. And yes you can quote me, as long as it's accurate.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
And I'm saying he clearly said he tried to believe and if every Christian who is 'faking it until they make it' is a fake, then you should call anyone who is who is trying to believe but isn't there yet a fake. It's okay to talk out of one side of your mouth at a time. No one is making you say that having doubt and trying to 'fake it until you make it' doesn't make you 'not a true Christian' ™ but that guy who had doubt and was 'faking it until he made it' wasn't really a Christian, even though it's clear that he tried very hard to be one. You want to have it both ways at once (for some reason), but I'm not buying what you're trying to sell, which is apparently getting to call someone who finally accepts that he's not going to make it a fake while giving those who are still trying a pass. I would guess because if wouldn't be good for soul-recruitment if you insult the people doing their best to be Christians; but once they give up they're fair game and a chance to show how those who give up will be treated.
Maybe try being decent to someone who tried and failed instead of ridiculing them...but that's not what I've come to expect from Christians, so I can't say that I'm disappointed. It's not like you have any moral standard of how to treat people (or how to gossip about them), you're clearly muddling through and struggling with figuring out what's right just like the rest of us, tackattack. It's not like Christianity has anything to offer in that regard.
so we will just have to agree to disagree.