Another question for Christians

[CoxRox]

So it's those statements of Jesus that tell you it's true? Because those concepts all existed long before Christianity. If I could show you that they existed in an older religion, would that cause you to switch?

I know these concepts predate Jesus' life on earth, and can be found in many belief systems. No other belief system 'pulls' me like Christ does. I am drawn to the Bible and it speaks truth to me. (I don't like using the word 'Christianity' as it has become a dirty word now representing the opposite of what Jesus teaches).

Again; gaining 'hope' is not the same as gaining 'proof'. Do you care whether the things you believe are true, or do you not? Your statement that you don't need archaeology to know it's true tells me that you don't.

Yes, I care about truth. I mentioned archaeology in reference to those statements of truth. What I meant was, that I can decide what is truth to me, without the need of archaeology, although, archaeology, history, science etc, do play an important part in strenghening my faith, weak as it is.

Now on this hell issue. Your good buddy Jesus speaks of an eternal fire. He tells you that hell is the most terrible thing that can happen to you. It's all there in Matthew, and don't you try and tell me that it simply means the grave and not existing any more. If you ceased to exist, you wouldn't know about it - so how would this be terrible? I can see why being in heaven with God would be better, but since you'd never get to make the comparison if you simply ceased to exist, it's kind of irrelevant. Revelation tells you that hell is to be cast into a lake of fire on judgement day. If you had just gone into the grave and ceased to exist, and therefore lost all ability to feel pain, why would this matter? This notion that hell is simply going into the ground is nonsense. It means what it says. It's disingenuous of you to claim otherwise. I'm glad you've come to the understanding that the notion of eternal torture is, which means you're one step away from understanding how evil the Bible really is. Revelation explicitly speaks of 'torment for ever and ever'. How can you claim that it means something so benign, when all evidence is to the contrary?

I will come back to you on this, (got to go in a min). You make some good points, which I will gladly cover. I would just ask you to consider hyperbole and figurative language. When Jesus told people to pluck out their eye if it caused them to sin, do you think HE meant for people to LITERALLY pluck out their eyes, or cut off various body parts? If you do, then you'll take his words on Gehenna (the local rubbish dump that had literal fire and worms that ate the bodies that were thrown in it) to be literal. I do not believe Jesus was being literal then, or that he meant literal worms will eat literal flesh forever. (the words 'forever and ever' actually mean in the Greek 'to an age and an age'- meaning for a set period of time, not for eternity.

We know you have chosen to trust Jesus' claims. The question is WHY have you done this? What reason do you have? Again, it comes back to whether you care if things you believe are true or not. Also, I'm interested to know, since you said eternal torture would be an evil concept; if it could be shown that the Bible meant to torture sinners for eternity, would you agree that it is evil, or have you created an unfalsifiable position in your mind?

When I consider Jesus and His teachings, they shout out truth to me. It makes sense and it gives me a hope that evil will not always triumph, and that love will win. No other belief system or person, can compare to Jesus in my opinion. I've studied and prayed and asked God to show me if HE is real and if Jesus is real, and I believe He has answered that prayer, in that I am irresistably drawn to Christ.

I have studied the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for years. I do not believe a God who says 'love your enemies', and who does not delight in the death of the wicked, would conceive of such an evil thing. I no longer worry whether God is some kind of cosmic torturer who repays finite sins with infinite suffering. Death, is the punishment for sin. Yes, suffering is part of it too, and Jesus speaks of a real suffering that people will experience, but just as literal worms don't exist 'forever', so too will people not be kept alive for the sole purpose of being in pain. I'll come back to you on this.


EDITED TO FIX QUOTE BOXES -DeistPaladin