[Serious] Christians what would change your mind?

[GrandizerII]

vicarious redemption is practiced in any selfless act. You sacrifice yourself for other's wants/needs. It's also practiced in societies that sacrifice the one for the many ie. the death penalty. Just because someone practices the sacrifice for the many does not necessarily absolve personal accountability. I believe this part is where we differ the most. To restate your position for my clarity, I believe you claim that no society practices exemption from accountability based on vicarious sacrifice. ??

I have to agree with MA here. I don't think the best way to argue for vicarious redemption is by comparing it to the death penalty. The thing is it is believed in mainstream Christianity that all people are bound by the chains of sin and thus the only way to salvation is via vicarious redemption. Atheists generally don't agree with the whole idea of us being slaves to sin (or the ternal consequences of such) and thus no need for some Son of God to come along and save us.

That said, I don't see vicarious redemption as immoral in the context of the Trinity God. God offers his Son (not to be compared to a human father offering their human son btw) to redeem the world. Sounds like a noble thing to me.