[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't personally believe that a god or human beings get to determine right or wrong.  That would make the terms fundamentally arbitrary.

Do you believe that?  Do you believe that if god declared rape to be good, that rape would be good?  

Why should there be consequences for murder if we cannot maintain that moral agents are responsible for the consequences of their actions?  On what theory does god carry out justice?  God does what god wants, justice is just some word that we use for things that we can't force god to do, as I recall.

I would agree that multiple sources would not be able to determine standards of right or wrong; I agree that would be arbitrary.  However, for a single God to determine right or wrong would work - there would be no confusion then.

This seems like a simple problem with language that I can clear up with you.  A thing isn't made arbitrary or non arbitrary on account of the number of deciding agents.  The terms right and wrong are made arbitrary by not referring to anything about the act - rather, to the whims of the decider.

Nothing about the act of rape, or your example below of genocide, will change if a god or anyone else or many gods or many people declared it to be right.  Insomuch as a thing can be right or wrong, in any real sense, there must be something about that thing that makes it right or wrong. Some thing that either is or isn't true about that thing, not the appraiser.

I'm not going to answer the hypothetical question about rape.  Let's change it to genocide, why would that be inherently bad?  From a man vs man point of view, there are going to be wars and capital punishment but in general sure killing is bad.  But now if God orders Israel to wipe out other people why would that be different?  Well, I imagine they were carrying out his punishment on other countries that were disobedient - indeed their ability to do so typically depended on their own obedience to God.  I know this opens up a whole can of worms, let's just say in the New Testament we don't see this approach being carried out any longer.  I'm not pro-genocide, but God can wipe out whichever countries are deserving of that justice.

God does what God wants, justice is carrying out punishment for disobedience.

Rape is no more or less hypothetical than genocide...but, sure, another example we use for it's ease.  Why would genocide be bad?  I think that we're touching on alot of things here - but we can put the brakes on it for a moment to make sure that we're not having a pointless argument.

Is it your contention that morality is real, non arbitrary, and that theres something about these seemingly bad things that makes them better or good, or justifiable, or are you dispensing with morality entirely in favor of an invocation of pure ability?  It would be silly to bicker over the morality of an issue with a person who does not think that morality applies.   

Do you think that genocide might be justifiable punishment for disobediance, or do you think that the issue is moot in the face of gods raw power?