RE: Enough of this crap, I want to hear directly from god
November 22, 2020 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2020 at 12:03 pm by R00tKiT.)
(November 19, 2020 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You supplied all the facts I require.
Children tend to ascribe purpose to natural phenomena, and children have trouble with difficult concepts. Given these two things
Actually, we're only interested in the assertion in bold, for which you provided no satisfactory explanation whatsoever, forget about the other thing. Until you provide an explanation, let's go with the appearances of things, it's more probable than not that an observed tendency towards teleological thinking points to the object of teleology -god.
(November 19, 2020 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: To me, that's an absurd assertion. You are just as different from a battery without a god as you are with a god. No fact about you or batteries change on account of changing some fact about a god. Just like no fact about chickens or eggs changes by changing a fact about the chicken god.
With a god the notion of a soul becomes perfectly conceivable. If there is no soul, that is, an immortal part of us, then there is no afterlife by definition.
If we change a fact about the chicken god, chicken may acquire a soul, and thus they may have an afterlife to "look forward to".
(November 19, 2020 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Consider this. You and I are different people. A third person is in the room with us. Do you and I cease to be different people when that third person leaves the room? Do we become different people, again, when that person reenters?
The existence of god isn't exactly equivalent to the existence of a third person in the room.. and you already know that.. why come up with this half-baked comparison. There is a causal relationship between people and God, God caused the existence of people -regardless of how many events it took to create them. The third person in the room with us is exactly like us. God is not like us.
(November 19, 2020 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You rattled off a list of Bad Things...and it seems to me that since you're so concerned with them, you could find purpose in preventing them or helping victims of those things. You could do this, and people do exactly this, regardless of whether they believe in gods, and regardless of whether there are any gods. I didn't have any trouble doing it, or finding purpose in it.
-and..before you launch yourself wholeheartedly into some comment about how only god-purpose is real purpose, and all of those people who don't need god for purpose have it wrong - consider what that does to your assertion about children and their tendencies. You would be asserting that some (if not most) of what they see...is wrong, not real.
Of course I could do this. But this is not what we're discussing here. Absent any god, the universe is really without purpose for all these people who were victims of these Bad Things. The existence of god does change a lot for them. Of course I can find purpose - I, who happens to be luckier than all these poor victims - in helping the poor victims, but what about purpose for these victims themselves?
Absent a god, there is nothing for example one can say (or do) to consolate the mother of a -raped then butchered- innocent little girl, nothing. No amount of effort in this life will make it up for here. She can only find hope and purpose in the idea of hell for the rapist, and heaven for her daughter.
And this does nothing to my assertion about children and their tendencies, I already said we're only interested in the tendency, not what shape their tendencies and dreams may take. And my bet would be if you tell a random sample of children about some really tragic story involving some of these Bad Things, a good proportion - even if not taught anything about religion - will tell you they can only wish for the criminal some kind of eternal torture, and the victim some form of eternal bliss, like flying with unicorns or swimming in a pool of ice-cream.