Isn’t pantheism the same thing as atheism?

[Seax]

These are all excellent questions.

I'm going to format the text my own way since this stuff becomes part of my files.

“The really absurd claims are the Garden of Eden, which early Christian apologists like Origen defended as allegorical, rather than literal, truths. The story was ridiculous to most even in a time when things like ceremonial magic went unquestioned.”

==Yes, the number of absurd claims is high.
A jew, christian, muslim or mormon who tells me those stories are allegorical, I tell them that the tanakh is a chain of sentences. It is written in a story (as in history) format. There is a chain of people who are begetting other people and there are stories as to what they do and there is mention of tribes, cities, some of which have disappeared while others still exist.
So exactly, at which line does the tanakh switch from allegory mode to reality mode?

Also, before science came along, no one (or should I give some leeway here?) claimed that those were allegories. If I am wrong, they are free to show me a church claimed that those were allegories. I want to see an original print, coming from a top guy at a church.

This shows us how superior science is to religion.

“They believe that God is separate from nature & regard much that is natural, and in my view healthy, as ungodly.”

==I think it isn’t healthy. My religion teacher told me that the body does not last forever and thus, it isn’t important. I went to a christian school.
Well, a VIC-20 might not last forever but to someone who grew up with it and loves it, learns about the hardware and finds replacement components to fix it.
If you view this life as temporary, then what is the point of going to school, what is the point of scientific discoveries?
What’s the point of getting up in the morning? Just put a gun to your head, which is what some people did about 1000 y ago.
It was a religious movement started in France. They were advocating celibacy in order to not bring any new humans into this “rotten” world.
Eventually, the catholic church decided to kill them all.

“Moderation and selfcontrol; enjoying food without overeating, sex without becoming a letcher, wine without overdrinking, feeling anger without becoming a slave to rage; this was the Pagan ideal.”

==The problem with that is, how do you measure overeating, lascivity and so on?
It is subjective.

Antony Flew was born in 11 February 1923, London, England, United Kingdom.
Died 8 April 2010 (aged 87).
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

It’s interested that he agreed with ID claims.

“Pantheism is a monist conception of God. It is logical and coherent. God would not create a universe with laws opposed to His Will.”

==The above line suggests that the object being called a god has a brain.

“because God acts through natural laws, which are His Will.”

==So, if I do something in this universe, I am interfering with god’ will?

“Christians that reject nature & believe sex is evil & never reproduce are punished with genetic extinction, as are the secular anti-natalists & other anti-natural nutcases.“

==Let’s say that instead of sex, I want a special 3D printer. This 3D printer positions atoms/molecules. Over time, it can build a human.
Is such a machine possible?
Why hasn’t this god created this machine?

Also, do souls exist according to these  Pantheism monists?

“The difference is that atheist monism rules out God, while pantheist monism rules out everything else. The atheists looks at the trees, the stars, outer space & says 'I don't see any God.' The pantheist sees nothing but God.”

==All atheists I have encountered don’t rule out god and they, including me, think that when someone is talking about a god, they are talking about a guy.
In my case, I tell theists, it is possible that this universe is artificial and if they want to call the guys responsible for their existence a “god”, they can. I would not do that.

The pantheist riles out everything else? Can you clarify?

“pantheism sees them as the Will of God.”

==So, if I make a painting, is that painting my will or the will of god?

“As for how a brainless thing can have meaning, I see not why we should assume that anything with a brain has meaning out of the blue either. I hold that meaning comes from God, from nature.”

==That was the thing that I did not understand and looks like a few others as well. I was under the impression that you were calling this universe a god,
It looks like you think you are calling it a god and also that there is a brain.
You mentioned will of god 4 times in your post.

--Ferrocyanide

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Why would God 'think' in the same manner as a human?

Are you saying that this god thinks without having a brain?

--Ferrocyanide

Origen claimed that much of the Old Testament was allegory, & he was among the first Christian apologists, & I believe the first to mention the Trinity. (On a side note, his conception of the trinity was Arian rather than Homoousian (Homoousianism is the Catholic, Protestant & Orthodox view) though the Church claims that Homoousianism was the original view & Arianism was the novel, heretical view.) Saint Augustine, generally the most important Church Father in both Catholicism & Protestantism (but controversial in Orthodoxy), held similar views but had slightly more literalist takes on certain parts of the Old Testament.

Generally the Christians tried to preserve the literal interpretation where possible. Biblical Literalism, Answers in Genesis style, is a relatively recent phenomenon that is generally held to be a product of the scientific revolution. With the dominance of scientific discourse, many believers want their religion to be not only metaphysically or spiritually true, but scientifically true.

As for when exactly the Old Testament switches from literal allegorical, you'd have to ask a believer. I'm personally of the view that it's all myth, & not even great myth (I find the polytheistic myths of Rome a thousand times more beautiful, I'd much rather go digging for allegorical truth there), and that the allegorical interpretation is a cope for how utterly ridiculous the whole thing is.

==The problem with that is, how do you measure overeating, lascivity and so on?

It is subjective.

Yes.

“Pantheism is a monist conception of God. It is logical and coherent. God would not create a universe with laws opposed to His Will.”

==The above line suggests that the object being called a god has a brain.

“because God acts through natural laws, which are His Will.”

==So, if I do something in this universe, I am interfering with god’ will?

I mean not 'Will' in the exact same sense that humans have a will. I mean that the universe has a purpose, which we can have only an extremely limited understanding of. It don't mean to imply that God has a mind, personality or even thinks like humans, if He thinks at all.

No, because you are ultimately part of God, along with everything else that exists. Anything that interferes with God's purpose is eliminated through natural laws.

The pantheist riles out everything else? Can you clarify?

“pantheism sees them as the Will of God.”

==So, if I make a painting, is that painting my will or the will of god?

By this I mean the pantheist rules out the possibility of anything that is not an expression of God existing at all.

We both agree that that there is no God separate from the world. That there is no supernatural Creator apart from nature sending down Prophets or miracles for anyone that begs hard enough. This is 'monism' ('mon' meaning one, so there is only one kind of thing). But you, as an atheist or materialist, believe that that thing is not God. I believe it is.

As for your painting, is an expression of your will, unless you made it against your consent, in which case it is an expression of someone else's will. But you, & everything else that exists, is untilatemly an expression of God.

Are you saying that this god thinks without having a brain?

When I speak of the 'Will' or thought of God I am talking in personal, human terms of something that is neither a person nor human, but there exist no better terms. Try to think of it as a metaphor if you must, but the nature of God is unknowable to us, though it is nonsensical to suppose that God has a brain.