(April 1, 2021 at 9:09 am)Superjock Wrote: He kept insisting that because I don't KNOW everything about gravity that there is nothing in my system that would prevent gravity from operating differently tomorrow. Just because gravity has observable patterns today or yesterday doesn't mean it will be consistent tomorrow or the next, so in my worldview anything can change. What regulates gravity or the laws of physics? What is the absolute etc - so I naturally said that I don't know.
So far, this is all correct, I think.
These are things we take for granted -- that gravity works as it does and not another way, that it will remain consistent, etc.
Some people say that for these things to be true, there has to be a ground of being or logos which sustains things in being. This is what they call God.
It takes a lot of argument to get from there to the God of the Bible.
Quote:I seriously need to learn how to deconstruct these theist arguments because I am so weak right now - he then went to Modus Pollens, which I've never even heard of.
I think it's "modus tollens," with a t. ("Modus Pollens" sounds as if it has to do with hay fever.) It's one of those logical structures that comes up a lot in metaphysical arguments. It would make sense to work on it a little, if you really want to keep talking with these guys.
Clearly, these guys have been at this a while. They have heard every single argument you can throw at them, and they have their replies ready. They may be good replies or bad ones, but they're ready. They have a self-consistent system -- which is not to say it's a good one, only that it holds together for them and the suggestions you're getting on this forum for arguments you can use against them will have no effect.
I think the trouble is that both sides approach it as a fight. You are sure they are wrong already, and you want to fight them. A lot of their opponents begin with the idea that they are stupid, and their arguments can be defeated with something obvious. And of course they are completely sure they're right. It means that neither side really listens. Good faith debate requires more.
It may not be possible on that particular forum, with Darth Whatsit, but I think that learning a lot more about theology and metaphysics in a non-fight environment would make sense at this point. They start with a number of reasonable assertions and extrapolate those to things that are maybe not justified. We need to separate the good from the bad, and be clear about the arguments they use. But that's hard if everybody's just hating each other.
You can't learn theology or metaphysics on this site, because people will say anything they want about religion as long as it's negative. Overall there's no commitment to accuracy.
