RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 4:01 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 4:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 10, 2021 at 3:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:I keep telling you that I don't think god forcing humans is a problem either, and that it;s not the shittiest thing you believe god does or will do..but I wonder why you would argue both ends of that irrelevance, since the use of force isn't why foreknowledge precludes free will.(June 10, 2021 at 3:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: This is only you insisting that god does indeed force humans, and in fact forces everything.Okay. Let's stop here. In order to say that agent A (who is capable of foreknowledge) forces agent B to do X, this entails two things:
1) Agent B intends to perform action X
2) Agent A precludes B from performing X and forces him to do Y instead. Y being different from X.
But what if, instead:
1) Agent B intends to perform action X
2) Agent A forces B to perform action X. not Y, or Z. Thanks to agent A's foreknowledge, he pinpointed the action X that agent B would choose because of his free will.
I don't think it would be a problem if God "forces" all human beings to go with their free will.. he is just enforcing free will, which was his intention, after all.
Quote:Why indeed? Can we, though.....can we even do anything other than gods will? Do we have that choice?(June 10, 2021 at 3:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We do whatever god wills, even if we might otherwise do whatever we willed absent that force.Why would we do anything other than God's will, which is identical to our free will ? It's just like saying " I don't have a choice but to choose to do X", it's just syntactic ambiguity, there is no real problem.
Quote:So, yes you do have free will and yes you can make god wrong?(June 10, 2021 at 3:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Are you free to make god wrong in the future, but not the past? If you believe that foreknowledge is an absolute and eternal property of your god, then you must be wrong about yourself and what abilities you have.
Well if you define free will as the ability to change past events, of course we have no free will...... As I said, it's impossible to speak accurately about free will without taking time into account. If God was inside the Spacetime , it would be indeed the case that foreknowledge is impossible. But, reportedly, he's not.
Let's define free will as : the ability to choose between at least two things or scenarios.
Now here is an example. For a given individual X endowed with free will relativitely to scenario S:
X chooses S1, then S2, then S3. God, being all-knowing, knows this sequence.
God lays out the sequence of events S3, S1, S2 => Foreknowledge contradicts free will.
God lays out the sequence of events S1, S3, S2 => Foreknowledge contradicts free will.
[...]
God lays out the sequence of events S1, S2, S3 (the same sequence X would choose) => Foreknowledge is compatible with free will.
If this example is correct, then, in order to show that foreknowledge actually contradicts free will. One must show that the choices we make differ from those laid out by God. But since we have no access to the latter information. It's impossible to show such a contradction.
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