(November 20, 2021 at 7:55 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Im not worried about your god argument nutter. I’m just pointing out that your supercauser needs a caused universe.
That’s why you got QM wrong.
I didn't get QM wrong, lol. QM is irrelevant. It's silent on whether there is an underlying causal structure. The uncertainty principle reflects an inherent limitation of human knowledge, the best we can ever do is to assign probabilities to states. If our measurements are limited, our measurements can't really detect a violation of causality, which means that poly was shooting himself in the foot all along.
And because, on the macroscopic level, there is indisputably an axiom of relativistic causality, this gives very good reason to accept it as valid universally.
(November 20, 2021 at 8:19 pm)polymath257 Wrote: But QM is, in fact, both local and non-causal.
I already provided a source on what the word "acausal" means. It doesn't really mean what you're implying here. It just means that we can't point out a cause to effects at the subatomic level, due to quantum indeterminacy.
(November 20, 2021 at 8:19 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Nope. For example, assume there are completely random dice. Individual outcomes are uncaused, but the averages are reliable. That is a type of causality for the averages, just like what happens in QM.
It is a fairly basic fact about QM that the averages of observables obey classical mechanics.
Your assertion in bold is unsubstantiated. As I stated before, you can't rule out hidden determinism. There might very well be a cause that is outside the purview of QM, and given that, on average, we do have causality, this is all the more reason to postulate that there is hidden causality setting up individual outcomes.
(November 20, 2021 at 8:19 pm)polymath257 Wrote: No, it actually means there is no underlying causal structure.
Non-sequitur. We can't even measure both the position and the velocity exactly....! How can you measure with 100% certainty whether there is causality or not..?
And also, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
(November 20, 2021 at 8:19 pm)polymath257 Wrote: No, it actually means there is no underlying causal structure. This is a basic aspect of how science is done: if it cannot be detected, even in theory, it is meaningless to say it exists.
It's still very meaningful for the theist.