(February 18, 2023 at 8:37 pm)Belacqua Wrote:The only instance I can find of the word pride not being used to mean a vice is this: In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.(February 18, 2023 at 7:09 pm)Objectivist Wrote: You know I've been searching the Bible for any mention of pride and in every case, the Bible gives a negative spin to pride. The only reference to pride in a positive light is talking about a people bieng proud because they obeyed God. Every instance of individual pride is negative and it is associated with arrogance, haughtiness, boastfulness, thinking highly of one's self,
,destructiion, downfall, strife, and violence. So I think C S is using pride exactly as the Bible uses it. I stand by my statement. As long as C S Lewis accepts Christian morality he must, to be consistent, treat pride as a sin.
Now, I no longer own a bible so I can't look to see how the Bible defines pride if it does. Can you point to a passage in the Bible that treats pride as a virtue. I mean maybe I'm missing it.
I've also been looking into it a little bit. It seems to me that the only real problem occurs when the English translators choose the word "pride" for the original Hebrew or Greek. In those original languages, there is no ambiguity.
From what I've seen, the Hebrew is "gaon," and is nearly always synonymous with conceit, arrogance, haughtiness -- that kind of thing. The Septuagint translators rendered "gaon" as "hyperephanos." "Ephanos" on its own means arrogant, so "hyper" just makes it stronger. Then the authors of the New Testament also used "hyperephanos."
https://www.quotescosmos.com/bible/bible...G5243.html
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/pride/
The only exception I see listed is from the above link:
Quote:An exception is "glory" (Isa 4:2).
As I recall the word "hubris" isn't in the New Testament. Its Greek meaning evolved over time and didn't always refer to overly-strong pride, the way we use it today. I don't know exactly the nuance it had for the authors of the Gospels, but it might have been different from the way we use it.
It looks as though the ambiguity of the word is introduced when people started reading the Bible in English. While the word "pride" usually had the negative connotation, the positive meaning is there also, from fairly early on.
Quote:Middle English prede, from late Old English pryto, Kentish prede, Mercian pride "unreasonable self-esteem, especially as one of the deadly sins; haughtiness, overbearing treatment of others; pomp, love of display," from prud (see proud (adj.)).
[...]
In Middle English sometimes also positive, "proper pride, personal honor, good repute; exalted position; splendor," also "prowess or spirit in an animal." Used in reference to the erect penis from 15c. Meaning "that which makes a person or people most proud" is from c. 1300.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/pride
So from Middle English there's a possibility of the positive sense. I also like a lot that it can refer to an erect penis. I'll keep that in mind for the next time it comes up, so to speak.
It is clear from the context of the chapter that the survivors' pride will be in the abundance and beauty of the land after God has restored it and not pride in themselves. Therefore, my statement stands.
"Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind, and a step that travels unlimited roads."
"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see."
"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see."