RE: The burden of proof relating to conciousness, free choice and rationality
March 8, 2012 at 10:55 pm
“Do you or do you not believe that all aspects of mind are a result of material processes, quantum or not?” - Apo
The reverse to your question is, “Do you believe that all material aspects result from mental processes?” Your question comes from the perspective of Materialism. The reverse question comes out of Idealism. Both positions want to claim that one aspect of reality as the whole of reality. “No matter, never mind.” My answer to both questions is no. Mind does not arise out of matter. Nor does matter arise out of mind. Although they can be distinguished in thought, they can not be distinguished in fact. Both mind and matter are aspects of an essential unity. That unity is greater than either mind or matter considered alone.
“…. then you have embraced dualism, and you inherit all the known problems inherent in dualism. If that is the case, I don't think we have anything to discuss…” – Apo
If you embrace materialism you inherit all the problems with materialism. If you embrace idealism you inherit all the problems of that position too. All positions entail difficulties. By conversing, you and I can reflect more deeply into the problems that concern us.
“…list the aspects of mental experience which… must be real and true because they can't not be true and have all the features, properties and appearances that they do.” – Apo
To fulfill your request, I’ll first turn it into a simpler question: What aspect of mental experience must be real because if it wasn’t real it would still appear real?
Or better yet…
What mental attribute must be real because if it was an illusion it would still appear real?
Answer: pain.
“Second…demonstrate that the things on your list…cannot possibly be illusions or mistakes in as much as certain properties of them are apparently real and true.” – Apo
The illusion of pain is still painful.
“Prove definitively one way or the other that the snakes are or are not moving without examining the actual image file.” - Apo
Right after you prove definitively that matter exists apart from your perception of it.
The reverse to your question is, “Do you believe that all material aspects result from mental processes?” Your question comes from the perspective of Materialism. The reverse question comes out of Idealism. Both positions want to claim that one aspect of reality as the whole of reality. “No matter, never mind.” My answer to both questions is no. Mind does not arise out of matter. Nor does matter arise out of mind. Although they can be distinguished in thought, they can not be distinguished in fact. Both mind and matter are aspects of an essential unity. That unity is greater than either mind or matter considered alone.
“…. then you have embraced dualism, and you inherit all the known problems inherent in dualism. If that is the case, I don't think we have anything to discuss…” – Apo
If you embrace materialism you inherit all the problems with materialism. If you embrace idealism you inherit all the problems of that position too. All positions entail difficulties. By conversing, you and I can reflect more deeply into the problems that concern us.
“…list the aspects of mental experience which… must be real and true because they can't not be true and have all the features, properties and appearances that they do.” – Apo
To fulfill your request, I’ll first turn it into a simpler question: What aspect of mental experience must be real because if it wasn’t real it would still appear real?
Or better yet…
What mental attribute must be real because if it was an illusion it would still appear real?
Answer: pain.
“Second…demonstrate that the things on your list…cannot possibly be illusions or mistakes in as much as certain properties of them are apparently real and true.” – Apo
The illusion of pain is still painful.
“Prove definitively one way or the other that the snakes are or are not moving without examining the actual image file.” - Apo
Right after you prove definitively that matter exists apart from your perception of it.
