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Deism for non-believers
#99
RE: Deism for non-believers



Just to, perhaps, cast this issue into a little more focus. If this immaterial world, and any god in it, do not in some sense exist in time, even if not our time, then all caused existents related to it are co-existent with it. This is generally not the option chosen in such a scenario, but rather that the immaterial existed, and then the material existed. It's possible, even in immaterial time, that this was simply the unfolding of what passes for natural law in the immaterial world, without depending on the choice of any agent, immaterial or not. However, if an immaterial agent chose to change the state of existence, immaterial or material, that choice, and its effect is intervention (see below).

Oxford English Dictionary Wrote:intervene, v.

Forms: Also 16 entervene, interveyn, Sc. -vein.
Etymology: < Latin interven-īre, < inter between + venīre to come. Compare French intervenir (earlier entrevenir, 1363 in Hatzfeld & Darmesteter).

In this case, the immaterial agent is "coming between" events and what would be without its choice and act, and causing that 'existence' to take a form it wouldn't have without that choice/act.

There's a third option that occurs to me, the so-called logical necessity defense, that if the agent was in some way unable to avoid the act (such as if in order to avoid it, they would have to make false equal true), it may not be considered an intervention in the usual sense of a voluntary action which comes between the natural course of events and their resulting in the natural course.


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Messages In This Thread
Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 9:20 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - June 9, 2012 at 9:58 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:11 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 9, 2012 at 10:12 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:24 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 9, 2012 at 10:44 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Ace Otana - June 10, 2012 at 6:47 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 7:42 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Ace Otana - June 10, 2012 at 8:00 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Tempus - June 10, 2012 at 8:52 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 10, 2012 at 8:30 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Adjusted Sanity - June 9, 2012 at 10:25 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:28 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Adjusted Sanity - June 9, 2012 at 10:32 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:37 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Norfolk And Chance - June 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Adjusted Sanity - June 10, 2012 at 10:18 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 9, 2012 at 10:33 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:44 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 9, 2012 at 10:48 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2012 at 10:55 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 11:40 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 9, 2012 at 10:59 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2012 at 11:08 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 9, 2012 at 11:18 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Faith No More - June 9, 2012 at 11:28 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2012 at 11:53 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 10, 2012 at 12:01 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by cratehorus - June 10, 2012 at 12:05 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 12:12 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 10, 2012 at 12:37 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 12:30 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 1:19 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 10, 2012 at 3:07 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 4:37 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 10, 2012 at 5:07 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 10, 2012 at 5:30 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 5:35 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 10, 2012 at 5:04 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 10, 2012 at 6:07 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 6:30 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 10, 2012 at 10:02 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 10, 2012 at 6:34 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 9:14 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 10:11 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 10, 2012 at 10:44 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Ace Otana - June 10, 2012 at 11:11 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 10, 2012 at 11:22 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 10:14 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 10:24 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 10:34 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 11:03 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 11:17 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 10, 2012 at 5:33 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 10, 2012 at 7:00 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 10, 2012 at 7:16 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 7:22 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 10, 2012 at 7:32 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 10:35 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 11, 2012 at 8:06 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 12, 2012 at 3:12 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Colanth - June 15, 2012 at 6:13 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 10:51 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 10, 2012 at 11:32 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2012 at 11:43 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 11, 2012 at 12:11 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 11, 2012 at 12:59 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 12, 2012 at 12:13 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 12, 2012 at 4:48 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 11, 2012 at 4:22 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 11, 2012 at 7:27 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 11, 2012 at 9:01 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Brian37 - June 11, 2012 at 9:06 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 11, 2012 at 9:43 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 12, 2012 at 12:52 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 12, 2012 at 6:22 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Skepsis - June 12, 2012 at 9:39 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 12, 2012 at 2:10 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Mister Agenda - June 12, 2012 at 3:04 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 13, 2012 at 12:17 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 13, 2012 at 12:38 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 15, 2012 at 9:42 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 17, 2012 at 11:00 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 17, 2012 at 8:57 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 17, 2012 at 9:26 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 18, 2012 at 6:00 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 18, 2012 at 2:20 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 19, 2012 at 2:23 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 19, 2012 at 4:15 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 19, 2012 at 11:08 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 19, 2012 at 12:03 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Taqiyya Mockingbird - June 19, 2012 at 12:15 pm
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 22, 2012 at 11:06 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by FallentoReason - June 23, 2012 at 6:44 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Faith No More - June 22, 2012 at 11:17 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by Angrboda - June 24, 2012 at 12:17 am
RE: Deism for non-believers - by The Grand Nudger - June 29, 2012 at 12:22 pm

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