(July 3, 2012 at 1:26 pm)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:(July 3, 2012 at 2:59 am)Jeffonthenet Wrote: A statement that there is no reason to believe God exists is not an argument against God…An "argument against gawd" presupposes that such a being actually exists.
I am sorry, but this is not the case. If you were to give an argument against the earth being 6000 years old, would I be presupposing that the earth is 6000 years old? (just a side note, I believe it is older)
Quote:You have not described or defined at all what a "god" is, nor have you shown any evidence whatsoever that such a being might exist. The burden of proof is yours. Your OP is precisely as preposterous as if I were to ask if anyone had any arguments against Crumple-Horned Snorkacks.
My purpose in this thread was not to prove God, but to ask for a good case against his existence. And if you are going to say that my OP is as preposterous as that, I would remind you that you are making a positive claim, and if you fulfill your own standards, this claim therefore requires evidence. I ask that you present that evidence.
Quote:Quote:Even if there were no good arguments for God, which I don't think I need to grant given arguments such as the Kalaam Cosmological argument and the Moral Argument (from the existence of objective moral values to God) it would not follow that there is no God.
You really think those pieces of shit are "good arguments"? -- as if an argument were evidence...?
They seem to me to be pretty good arguments. And good arguments give us good reasons to believe things.
Quote:Quote:It may follow that, as theologians throughout history have maintained, that if we are to know God, we must know Him by personal experience or by intuition…
You would first have to present some sort of evidence that such a thing exists and in the form that you idiots claim that it does.
Personal experience is evidence. If you went to a far off island yourself, but there was no other evidence for its existence, simply your personal experience of being there would be enough evidence to convince you that this island existed.
Quote:Lastly, if you accept the existence of the external world or other, what philosophers call properly basic beliefs, you believe some things apart from arguments, and so, if God exists it could be possible to know God in the same way, apart from argument. For all of these reasons, I don't think your reply stands up to scrutiny.
Quote:If such a being were to exist, it would be possible to know it in empirically, because it would be able to prove itself at any time by appearing before us and convincing us all of its existence, and it would be aware of the need for it to do so. That would be how it would be possible for us to know such a being "apart from argument".
How do you know such a being would want to do this? Especially when saving faith is not simply believing that God exists, Christian theologians through history have recognized that this is not saving faith, but trusting and obeying God from a sincere and moral heart are essentials as well. If
