Burden of Proof

[Mark 13:13]

So if he had not been there and others like him how would you have learned about qualities in yourself like tolerance and patience and decision making if they are never tested?

I didn;t learn anything about myself, let alone about the qualities you listed from John...lol. None of that has anything to do with the thrust of our discussion or purpose of my recounting the tale either. However interesting he may have been, whatever I may have learned about myself, neither had the ability to make his claim of being the king of the dumpster any more compelling (or demonstrate that it was true).

Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.

What is it that you think you are "listening to"? You -are- listening to the notes, the bars, and the movement. In the same way that all of this simply describes music in a way that we can communicate to each other, logic describes thought in a way that we can communicate to each other. No, not uncertainty inherent Mark, you aren't getting me, the situation is much more dire........ no measure of certainty possible, nothing but uncertainty, you will be incapable of demonstrating that any conclusion is true -even if it is-.

Dire, well I don't feel particularly threatened by my thinking processes, I do feel very worried by the bean counters who appear to be taking controll of world affairs (ps i'm not talking about you) and who seem to be unconcerned by the level of suffering caused to so many by their financial theories. I aslo feel threatened by Theists and Atheists who seem to feel the urge to force their World order on all just as many of you do(worry). I do worry as I get older and i'm now 50+ about the implications of the fact of my certain death on me personally and on those who care about me and I leave behind. But my thinking processes and my present mind set mmmh nope doesn't worry me sry , that's how it is.