Jesus, Least Fit Moral Judge

[Drich]

Wrong. The Church was killing non-believers so according to your cherry-picked NT canon they are now in eternal damnation. Hell yeah there's something to be feared, if the book was actually the truth of the cosmos.

Actually your wrong here. "The Book" says God is our ulitmate judge. Not the church or your understanding of the church or "The book." For example According to the darkages church no one but a member of the RC Chruch or rather what they consider to be 'christian' would enter heaven. This is what they taught and the reason for so much self righteous death and destruction. This teach is contary to what scripture teaches. Their will be 'non christians' in heaven. Their will be Non Roman catholics in heaven as well.

You confuse me with this moral relativism cop-out. I have my secular understanding of morality, you're meant to have your objective moral code from your god. Saying that back then it was ok to kill the innocent and now it isn't is simply being dishonest with yourself.

The act of killing has no intrinsic value in of itself (Man woman child baby deserving or not.) For Death is nothing more than a birth into eternity. What makes killing a sin is whether or nor God sanctioned the death or if someone took it upon themselves to kill outside of God's expressed will. Again the action of Rape, murder, genocide, smashing babies against rocks has no intrinsic righteous or unrighteous ascribed to them. What makes these actions sin/evil is when one does these things outside of the expressed will of God.

For Again, 'we' (humanity) are not judged on our works, but the condition of our hearts in relation to the acts we commit over our lives. In the other extream this same principle can be found at work in what Christ defines as luke warm Christians. Their lives can mirror down to the smallest act, the lives of men who are found righteous before God, but they themselves having spent a life dedicated or even mirroring the life of a righteous man and be 'unsaved.' Why? Because just like the man doing what you would consider "Immoral things" The acts in of themselves hold no value wiith God. Our righteousness rises or falls solely on the condition of our hearts.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Gawd demands that you believe in his scapegoat for a chance to cash in and win. No belief in him, no dice.

Is the dark ages Church Jesus? No. Can Christ be found outside of the dark ages church? Yes. Peter found Him, and so did Paul, barnabus, Timmothy and a host of other people. So again just because "the Church says X, does not mean God says X.

Out of curiosity, when did that hell experience happen to you?

Maybe 20 or so years ago +/-

No, the game is simple enough; convince the other side through reason. The problem is that I can't go back to doing mental backflips, strawmanning, moving the goal posts, red herrings... basically anything required to believe an ancient book has authority over my life.

This is perfect example that shows me that you have NO clue as to what Christianity is.

The Ancient book offers Freedom from authority, freedom from sin, freedom from the Law. Not that we won't sin any more. Because we do all of the time. We just do not have to follow the law as a way to obtain our righteousness.

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I do understand the idea that Jesus changed the way things operate, I just don't think y'all understand the implications of that. Which is why I asked about the morality of your god: does this then mean that there was a point in history where all of the awful things in the old testament were moral?

Read the post to fallen to reason I answered this there. if you still have questions feel free to follow up.

And that the scale of what was moral changed at the crucifixion? Would that not say a lot about the mutability of god's moral stature? And that you're also advocating for divine command, and not any form of objective, divinely inspired moral values?

I have identified "morality" several times and can dig up links to threads where I go deeper into explaining it, if you need more info. In short. "Morality" is man's attempt to recreat the Perfect Righteousness of God to allow for the sins he finds he can not part with. God's Righteousness identifies all sin as the same, deserving the same punishment. "Morality" grades sin. Putting the sins man can easily obstain from as highly immoral and the harder everyday sin as almost a trivality. For instance Murder and rape are far more 'immoral' than gossiping or white lies. While infact God identifes these two as being the one He hates the most.

So in short Morality is a form of ' righteousness' found apart from God. Christ Identifies this righteousness as "Self righteousness." as it does not come from God but with in our own sense of right and wrong.

Meaning, Morality= Self righteousness. If this does not answer your question then rephrase incorperating this defination of morality into your question.

With the alternative to heaven being an eternity in hell. That's... not much of a choice, really.

God encompasses all that He has created, if you spend this life trying to put distance between yourself and God, then wouldn't an eternity in Heaven under His rule as His slave be worse? Hell is the seperation you seek from God in this life. How does the saying go, "Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven?"