Christ's birthday

[Edwardo Piet]

First, it seems to me, EvF, that you are taking things out of context. When I said I didn't know, I was not talking about God in general or the issue as to whether God exists, I was merely saying that I do not know all the reasons why God does what He does or allows what He allows. I do not see much difference in that than someone who puts all their trust in the scientific method and then concluding on some point that they do not know. (Or do people who put all their trust in the scientific method have all the answers to all life's questions?)

My point is simply that... I fail to see any evidence of God's existence... you say things such as the universe itself is evidence for God... but I certainly cannot see any such implication. How is that evidence?

...I disbelieve your claim that I'm taking things out of context when I say "What makes you think that there is a God to be mysterious in the first place?"....because my point is simply that I believe it's meaningless whether you are sure or unsure in 'why God does what he does' - if you don't have any valid evidence that he actually exists in the first place.

You say that the universe itself is evidence for God. But in my opinion... you have completely failed to explain that...

By definition, the existence of the universe is self-evidence for the existence of the universe itself... how this implies God, how this evidences God, on the other hand... as I said - I believe you have completely failed to explain. Sorry.

Second, you sound like a broken record in saying that Christians believe in God without evidence.

Well whether it's a repetitive or not is completely irrelevant to whether it's valid or not.

I thought we covered that. I do think there is evidence for God.

And thinking doesn't make it so.

What I fail to see is how what you believe is evidence... is actually valid evidence? How does the existence of the universe itself imply God? How does it remotely evidence that? Please elaborate if you can, please explain - please clarify...

Before I mentioned the fossil record. Now I will mention the universe.

As I said, I don't see how the universe remotely evidences God?

And as for the fossil record... that evidences evolution... according to Science. And sciences job is finding facts about the world... - the evidence of the scientific method is very high standard.

It exists as does life in the universe. That fact is evidence.

Of God?? How???

All you seem to be doing is saying "X is true...and X is evidence of Y!" without actually clarifying how on earth X is evidence of Y...

You say that the universe exists. That is, of course, true. But then you assert that this is evidence for God... but how is it?!

You look at this evidence and say that it is evidence of the big bang, abiogenesis, and common descent.

No... these things have separate pieces of evidence...

The evidence for evolution is evidence for evolution. The evidence for the big bang is evidence for the big bang. Without these pieces of evidence the evidence for the universe itself would not necessarily evidence these....

How does the existence of the universe itself imply God? ...how does it evidence....God? How?

I look at this evidence and say that it is evidence of God.

Why do you? How is it?

So to say that I believe in God without evidence is not an accurate statement.

Well you may believe you have evidence. And to you, in your mind, it may evidence it. But whether it actually logically implies it... whether it genuinely evidences it is another matter.

If I believe that the existence of apples is evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster...then, sure I believe that's evidence....but does that mean it actually evidences it? Does the existence of apples actually give credence to whether the FSM actually exists? Is it actually valid evidence?

...Does it evidence it?

You could certainly conclude that I believe in God based on evidence that you do not accept as evidencing God.

Well who else am I speaking for? I'm the one debating you... so I can only know what I know. That is obvious I would think? So yes... it is me I am speaking for.

I am asking you how what you claim to be evidence...is actually evidence? As in genuine, valid, evidence? Does what you claim to be evidence of God... actually evidence him? Does it genuinely give indication to the truth of the matter?

The situation is similar to a hung jury in a murder trial. All the jurors hear the same evidence. Some conclude from the evidence one thing and some conclude something else. But I think it is not rational to say that one decision is based on evidence and one is not.

Well is it not a matter of who's information actually gives genuine credence, gives indication, to the truth of their position?

There is what one believes to be evidence... and then there's who's evidence actually genuinely evidences their position... right? Finding out who's right is the difficult matter. And you can never be absolutely sure...indeed. This is why we are speaking of evidence and not proof - because we can't be sure.

The fact is that Christian and atheist have all the same evidence. To a very large degree, the facts are the facts. I think where we really differ is in our conclusions from those facts based on the filters or presuppositions we run them through to interpret the facts. Now I'm sure over the years you have heard many reasons/evidence that people use for believing in God. To say that all of them then believe in God witout evidence I think is to redefine the word "evidence" to your own liking instead of using it in the usual sense.

I'm talking about evidence that actually genuinely evidences their position. They believe their evidence does genuinely evidence their position, so they believe they have genuine valid evidence. I don't believe what they call evidence does do that, so I say it's not actually evidence... because I am yet to see how it actually evidences their position.

If you can explain to me how the universe is actually evidence for God, rather than simply saying in your opinion it is and we all look at the facts differently... then fine.

Because I want to know why you think the existence of the universe itself is evidence for God? Whether that's true or not...

EvF