Religion and LGBT people

[Esquilax]

So, the fact that 60% of gay adults didn't self-identify as gay as adolescents indicates that people are not necessarily born with a fixed sexual identity.

No, it means that they didn't self identify as gay as adolescents. I've already told you why that might be.

Not accepting your speculative explanation without support is not misrepresenting the data.

No, but your misrepresenting the data is. You can't make any conclusions about genetics based on data that's cultivated via self reporting. You can only make subjective, after the fact conclusions, and I've already provided at least a few reasons why your singular answer is faulty, if not outright wrong. You can be genetically predisposed to many things that only come to light later in life, after all.

All you can say with any certainty is that self identification with homosexuality is more common later in life, conveniently after one's self concept and sexual identity becomes more formed and relaxed. You ignore sociological variables at your peril, John.

The effect of peer pressure is minimized in a confidential survey.

Only if the data was representing something where peer pressure could reasonably be expected to still have an effect. Given that all of the results here are culled from adults, you're just flat out wrong with this one: the peer pressure I'm talking about would have happened in the past, when those reporting were in their adolescence, after all. Why would peer pressure matter if they self identify as gay now?

Also, that effect couldn't explain all the change, as the numbers just aren't there. Hetero drops .8% from adolescence to adulthood, while G/L increases 1.5%.

There's no stigma on heterosexuality. There is on homosexuality. This is the key difference; self identifying as gay carries with it a threat of discrimination, bigotry and possible parental abandonment that isn't there for heteros. Of course homosexual identification would increase more than heterosexual identification would drop off; that just indicates that those who were closeted out of fear stopped having a reason to be afraid once they left high school and were able to pick their own environment. This isn't hard, dude.

Also note some stats given in the text. While 3% of adults self-identify as bisexual, triple that amount report attraction to both sexes. That's more than the G/L, B and other categories combined.

Yep, okay. And this proves what, exactly? Think of sexuality as a continuum: you can have small amounts of attraction to your own gender, enough to self report anonymously that it's there, without having to identify as bisexual. All this shows is that attraction to both sexes in amounts significant enough to be considered bi (or self awareness/willingness to be labelled as such) is less common than attraction to both sexes at all.

Also consider other times and cultures. For instance, ancient greeks didn't make gender the dividing line, they differentiated by the pentrative and receptive roles. It was fine for an adult male to take the penetrative role with another man, fine for an adolescent male to take the receptive role, but considered wrong for an adult male to take the receptive role. Where the heck is born gay in that paradigm?

The people who indulged in homosexual behavior? What do cultural niceties have to do with genetics? That's looking at the problem ass backwards. Social constructs spring up regardless of genetics, not in response to a lack of genetic predisposition. I really have no idea what you're trying to prove with this point.

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Or, it indicates that not everyone fully realizes their sexual identity as early as adolescence. It also indicates that the significant prejudice against non-traditional sexuality, and in some cases the legitimate danger of identifying as such, can make it much more difficult for a person to admit their own sexuality. To both, I would cite my own experience. I had bisexual urges as early as 13, but I had to live as many years again before I was able to admit it to myself, much less anybody else--even in confidence. I was raised by a homophobe, and I was myself a homophobe into my 20s. I chose to stop being homophobic, but I did not choose to be bisexual, and I find it insulting when people insist that it is a choice. To that, I'll repeat Esquilax's question: When did you choose to be straight?

Yeah, pretty much this. Although of course, you managed to say it with more brevity.

Thank you, it's nice to see someone else with the same kinds of experiences in here.