Quote:You are contradicting yourself. You say that it is astonishing that the conditions of the universe are in a narrow range - which implies that there is in fact a range they could lie in or out of, thus making them tunable. Whether of not they are tunable, thus becomes important to the very premise of your argument. Secondly, if those constants had to be what they are due to their very nature, then that goes against your assumption of intelligence behind them. And thirdly, you haven't established yet that the universe came into existence at any point.
Do you deny that several constants lie within an extremely narrow range that would allow life as we know it to exist?
To the best of my knowledge correct me it I am wrong the majority of scientists claim the universe (as it is now) came into existence about 13 and a half billion years ago.
Quote:If you assume that none of your arguments hold water then you should realize that your position is untenable and abandon it. Repeating arguments that you know to be incorrect is intellectually dishonest.
I assume none of my arguments will hold water with you, they do hold water with me and may hold water with uncommitted lurkers in this discussion board. It may come as a shock but thus far in my opinion none of your counter arguments hold water.
Quote:Then consider only facts and don't speak of nonsense like "an incredibly narrow range" since we don't know of any such range.
I will continue to say it as it remains true. Hypothetical objections don't negate the fact that several constants fall in an extremely narrow range to allow life. Deal with it.
Quote:And since you have completely failed to make even a single argument that stands to scrutiny, I'd say you're falling miserably short.
The merit of my arguments can be judged by those who don't have a dog in this hunt, I don't give a rats ass what my opponent thinks. I'm not asking for your approval or consent.
Quote:So we can conclude that theistic societies are worse off than secular ones.
Some religious societies are clearly worse off than secular ones. The USA is a secular government with a theistic philosophy.
Quote:That's a big if, and as has been consistently shown in this argument, not the case.
Its the only if, its the basis of the discussion at hand. You can't debate a topic and also be the judge of who is making a case or not.
Quote:Except, your government doesn't really follow these principles, since it has no problem jailing or handing out death penalties. That means the rights are anything but inalienable.
They give the accused due process and protect the unalienable rights of the abused by imprisoning those who infringe them. Of course its not a perfect system.
Quote:Well, what do you know? Your rights can be taken away by the government. Then, by your own reasoning, that is enough to prove that they were granted by the government.
They can be taken away by due process. They are upheld by the government and even the most heineous offenders get their day in court.
