Let's say that science proves that God exists

[Angrboda]

For what it's worth, Victor Stenger has run simulations in which the parameters of the universe varied by up to two orders of magnitude, and half of those universes yielded long period universes with heavy elements capable for the support of life as we know it.

Yes and he also manipulated other constants to counter balance the effect.

Oh, so in other words you admit that this isn't the only set of constants which could produce the result. Your fine-tuning argument is getting better all the time.

So you're wrong on the philosophical arguments, you're also wrong on the facts.

No you're wrong...completely. Happy?

With you basically caving on your main point... not yet, but I'm getting there.

The only thing that atheism implies is no belief in a god. Period. Any other crap that you add onto that, such as metaphysical naturalism, is your own bullshit misunderstanding and has nothing to do with atheism.

Thats your line of bullshit. If you don't believe the universe was designed and engineered then you believe it came about by happenstance. The crap atheism is just no belief in god is just a debating tactic.

That is a strawman, as well as a misapplication of the law of the excluded middle (there are more than two options).

So, the uncommitted should decide whether you are right, but you get to decide the truth of what atheists believe. Hypocritical much. I think somebody needs a nap.

"What is a right?" which you basically did not answer

No I answered you were just unsatisfied with the answer...so sue me.

I was unsatisfied with your answer because.... *drumroll-please* it was unsatisfactory.

Moreover, additional problems present themselves. The traditional god of the Abrahamanic faiths made humans knowing full well that they would suffer and die (which is by all accounts an unpleasant thing, for both the dying and those left behind).

Sorry I am a theist not affilated with any church or organized religion so please take your whining elsewhere.

Now I definitely think somebody needs a nap. You miss the overarching point in order to scurry under your typical "I'm not affiliated with any known church" debating tactic. For any set of conditions that exist in our universe, there are a million and one events that would likely not have occurred if things had been different. To pick any single one of them and say, ah ha, this is the reason for this unlikely scenario and ignore all the others is simply a non sequitur. There are multiple heavy elements that do not occur naturally and required human artifice to create. Who is to say that the creation of one of those elements wasn't the intention behind the creator's act, and humans were simply one path to that goal? I'm certain a god could think up a zillion and one ways towards any specific goal. That you think that you are that goal, and that he only had this one way, is rather underselling god. All the fine-tuning argument says is that if things had been different, then things would have been different. The existence of life in this particular universe is no more special than any equally improbable scenario in a universe where life did not occur. All you're showing by making a lot of noise about how improbable the existence of life is, is that you think you're special. You're not. At the end of the day, you're just a soup of chemicals, as unlikely as any of a billion other improbable things.


Oh, and for what it's worth, as a theist who isn't committed to any specific creation scenario, by your own criteria, I'm well placed to assess the merit of your arguments. I love it when a plan comes together!