Atheists, the death penalty and abortion...

[genkaus]

So let me get this straight. You are saying in a situation where my life depends on you alone, you don't have an obligation to save me. My beliefs is the opposite. If I and you were in a situation were you were in danger and no one but me can save you, I would be obligated to save you.

As long as you understand that you cannot impose your beliefs on me without giving a rational justification, we should be fine.

As I stated, a month year old born baby has about the same intelligence as an animal. We value it more then animal because of the potential life it can live. We value the seed for the tree it can become in the situation. You haven't refuted the logic I've shown.

First of all, you have not presented any logic - simply stated your belief. You value a month year old baby (a month year old? Seriously?) based on its future potential - not me. And not necessarily the woman in question. You have not given any reason for me to adopt your values.

Second of all, I'd value the newly born not on basis of future potential but the current capacity. Theoretically, atleast, it is capable of human level intelligence since all the hardware for it is in place. However, I'd accept that my views upon it are not fully formed.

Thirdly, we are not talking about a month year old baby, we're talking about the unborn fetus. The fundamental difference between the two is that one can exist outside the mother - thus the burden of responsibility of its existence can be placed upon those who value its future potential, while the other cannot - thus that value must be held by the one supporting it.

Why is that. And even this was true, and she should be afforded the choice, it won't change it being wrong and the same as murder.

Are you kidding me? Are you knowingly attempting circular reasoning or is it just a happy coincidence?

First of all, murder is specifically defined as an unlawful killing of a human being. For abortion to be murder, a fetus must be declared human and the act of abortion must be illegal. Both contentions are being debated and rejected here. You cannot assume their validity for the sake of your argument.

And secondly, it'd wrong according to your morality - not the woman's. You consider it wrong because it goes against your values - which you are free to do as long as you understand that you are not free to impose either upon her.

And thirdly - no one is afforded the choice to murder. If authorities have any knowledge of your intention to kill, they are obligated to stop you - not allow you to choose and punish afterwards. So your idea of allowing her the choice and then charging her with murder fails as well.

I don't see how this refutes the reasoning.

It doesn't have to. Your reasoning did not address the difference I pointed out. And the one you gave above addressed babies that are already born.

Besides, having sex, you know there is a chance of a baby. Therefore, there was an element of choice and responsibility except in cases of rape.

If I go out on the street there is a chance I'd get hit by a car. That does not mean I've assumed responsibility for whatever happens if I do. Knowledge of risk does not mean you've to accept the consequences unconditionally.

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I would also add that a mother and father have even more responsibility towards their child then other people.

Yeah - because they've chosen that responsibility by becoming the parents.

Blood relations are important. Even if you believe there is no basis to blood bond and relationships, no one knows that for sure.

Shifting the burden of proof now, are we? You can't know for sure, therefore its true? Does this even require a refutation?

Another thing is that precaution is sometimes the best policy. In the situation, murder vs inconvenience/hardship of raising a baby upon the mother....you don't want take a chance of murder.

Therefore precaution seems more reasonable.

If only because abortion carries greater health risks - yes precaution is better. Its also irrelevant to the question before us. And as corrected above - murder is not an option here.