Cinjin Wrote:Ok we're clear now. There's a sacrifice simply because you say there is. Despite the clear fact that the qualifications necessary to consider it a sacrifice are non-existent. Neither the dictionary nor your god would consider this a sacrifice anywhere else in the Bible, but yet somehow because YOU say it is, it certainly must be. Whatever. Jesus sacrificed nothing. Not his life, not his deity, not a son or daughter, no property taken from him ..... only some mild discomfort at best as not even a single bone was broken, yet somehow this is a "sacrifice" even though it fails to meet any of the criteria.
Alright, look. We have to assume something, else I have to prove that the bible is telling truth. So, if you would stop playing this game of "You're assuming!" it would be nice. Yes, for the sake of the specificity of the argument, we (yes, we, post #1) are assuming the biblical texts about the sacrifice of Jesus. Then, from these texts, we should talk about whether it was a sacrifice or not.
What you are not assuming that you should is a Christian metaphysics. If you're going to say "that isn't a sacrifice", you can't force your metaphysics upon the situation. You must assume a Christian metaphysics and evaluate from there. If you would like to attack the Christian metaphysics, make a different thread because you're only setting up a straw man.
Cinjin Wrote:My point was that jesus likely did not endure any significant physical pain on the day of his alleged sacrifice. *
Quote:Luke 19:41* Invalid, NOT physical pain.
John 11:34-36* Invalid, NOT physical pain.
And then the big one, Matthew 27:46* Invalid, NOT physical pain.
I guess I just I have to repeat myself...
"If this was all just physical, I'm sure people have had things worse, but this is not just about pain sensors or psychological damage."
The suffering isn't always physical. In fact, if it was just the physical, it would not be nearly enough of a redemption to bring grace to people, let alone multiple generations of people. I've already said that the sacrifice was not a physical suffering. Stop building straw men.
[quote='Cinjin']...and the author of Psalms was not dying on the cross at the time.
Duh.
Cinjin Wrote:A couple of those are taken way out of context. Is that how you like to win arguments? Use your own Bible out of context? Pathetic.
Straw man again. You asked for Jesus in pain. He never says, "I am in great pain", but he does cry. I gave you three times where he was in pain. Then, I gave you the big one while he's on the cross and briefly explained the cry. Now, you say I'm quoting things out of context and that is how I'm trying to win the argument, then criticize me because Jesus didn't write the psalms.
The quotes are not out of context simply because Jesus wasn't in physical pain. You wanted Jesus in pain, I gave it. The first two were only build up to the Matthew 27 quote, though, and are more minor pains comparatively.
The Matthew quote is Jesus quoting Psalm 22, not just randomly speaking, but because of pain expressed in the psalm and what he is going through. Jesus did not write it, no. It would be a terrible argument to say that since Jesus didn't write the psalm, it doesn't count. Please tell me you're not arguing that and I'm just reading you wrong. Please. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
