Explain to me the math behind redemption

[The Grand Nudger]

Its about LOVE!

So I keep hearing, but I don't see it - at least not by any use of the word I'm familiar with.

And I have had the concern you have! And only through the Holy Spirit was I able to understand...and it's a constant learning process! I didn't wake up one day and say: "I have it NOW!" ....hell-no!

It took ghosts and magic for you to understand something...well...I haven't been privy to any ghosts or magic in my life so I guess I;m just screwed. To be fair, if the situation is as described I;d rather be screwed than be on-board. I can't stress this enough.

Most don't fully understand the concept...including me at times!

Then perhaps you should leave the explanations to those that do?

But, because of love, God feels responsible for what we have to go through... even if we did sin against Him.

Its like our children! I have several...and there is NOTHING I wouldn't do for them! Including laying down my life!

There we are entirely in the same boat. Unfortunately, I understand that I wouldn't be doing my children any great service by leaving them behind me in a world in which scapegoating was acceptable. Perhaps you see my dilemma - since you had the same concern? Sure, sure, I'd try to run it passed the fabric of the cosmos because my love for them would likely overwhelm my better judgement....but this isn't exactly a very positive scenario..now is it? I'd also hope that I had raised them well enough to understand why this was no gift, why it was not an expression of love befitting a father with their children's interests in mind. And horror of horrors, I'd like to think that I'll e able to raise my children to be the kind of people who take ownership of their actions -and the consequences- and refuse to relinquish ownership of either out of brute integrity -even to their own detriment. All of this, mind you, is just where I'm at...and like any parent - I'd prefer to see my children turn out better than me.

God feels the same way about us!

If the parent analogy is to hold water, if I'm to appraise the actions (or motivations) of a god by my own actions (or motivations) as a parent..........then I'm left to wonder why god would impose such a situation upon me - knowing me as a father knows his son - when I couldn't personally conceive of such a sleight myself, and this...mind you, because of an understanding of the word love to which I am very familiar. I'm not going to hand my children a fistful of money with the blood still running out of the creases, and I'm certainly not going to tell them that punishing another (or me punishing myself) will absolve them of the consequences of their actions....

I think that this is the moment at which I mention what I have had occassion to mention so many times before. When I criticize this notion of vicarious redemption (and via blood/life sacrifice) I am not criticizing the notion of belief in god on it;s count - because as I mentioned above - that wouldn't be a blip on my radar either way - I'm criticizing the very core of a persons opinions that would allow for (or even worse, praise the virtues of) such a thing.

In short, if your god loves me, if your god knows me as a father knows a son, and if your god loves me as I love my own children (or even more) he's going to have to cease offering such a disturbing thing (and wouldn't it be oh so pleasant if something entirely less ghoulish was put in it's place?). Roger? If he can't, or if he won't..then so be it, but the father to son analogy shatters at that point (as does any narrative about this beings immense power)- and I just don't get to put my hand in the cookie jar...

-I'm okay with that.

(see what happens when you appeal to emotion and say -because love-? You are confronted with the brutish reality that what you have offered is entirely personal, and entirely irrelevant if I don't see love where you see love. You may also find that you don't see love here either -except- in the case of making a special allowance for a special friend. I can, in turn, granting your appeal - reverse the course of your river- explaining to you that I cannot be a party to this...-because love-)