Explain to me the math behind redemption

[The Grand Nudger]

Is "sin" the sticking point here? Because we can't have it, and God too! Ultimately we (Christians) will be united with God and share in His divinity. Be ONE with Him. That's the only way it could be. There can be no separations at that point.

No, Ron, vicarious redemption is the sticking point here, as it has been since we began having this discussion.

But first....let me ask you this for the sake of conversation... What does [a] God need to do to give His creation, His divinity? And without Him serving man?

I wouldn't know, nor do I understand why whether or not this god serving man would be an operative factor? (and this...even moreso because you already peddled so many analogies by parenting mind you...are we completely leaving everything already said behind from this point on?)

Lets just explore that for a minute. Because, ultimately this is the reason for all the confusion in religion. How [a] God is going to make it all right in the end?

Okay, lets take two minutes..they're small. I can't say that my confusion about religion arises from this question at all - though it most definitely plays a factor in my confusion about why a person would accept vicarious redemption.

Omni-potent/essent sounds like there's no problem. Right? Well no! We are talking about God's own being that He's giving to us! That's a heap more complicated than waving a hand over a top hat, and a rabbit jumping out.

Actually, it sounds like there's a lot of problems with that - but if there weren't...then it -does- sound like there's nothing holding a god back from anything, yeah. I think you may be missing the crux of my point when you mention this next bit Ron. If vicarious redemption is part of gods being...and that's what he's giving to us - I don't want it. I'm trying to figure out why I would want it in the first place. Though, obviously, an explanation of the mechanics of how this is achieved is going to be appreciated - as will a serious deficit of wands, top hats, and rabbits in the explanation offered.

The Angels were the first of God's creations. Lucifer wanted to be like God. And that was because he was made apart from God. And that is why we need to be united with God as one in Heaven.

-and a little girl with a red cloak took a stroll through the woods one day to visit her grandmother but got waylayed by a talking wolf...but lay that aside.....how does your last sentence follow from any sentence before it? In what way am I to extract a coherent thought from this response? Is the missing link in this chain of thought the implication that we don't want to be like Lucifer? Well, I never met the man but some fairly poignient words have been spoken about him:

"I have no special regard for Satan; but, I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but the evidence for the prosecution, and yet we have rendered the verdict." -Samuel Clemens

When thrown into hell, St. Michael said to Lucifer: "Who is like God?" And thus the "lie" to man: "...eat the fruit of this tree and be like God." Then the consequences of our actions...

Again I see an "and thus" that does not seem to have the prerequisites before it met. In any case, I remember a different promise being made in the narrative and I;m not sure why we seem to be pointing the finger at Lucifer on this one. It was a dragon...and not any angel that told Eve that she would not die from eating the apple (and she didn't), and that she would be like god knowing good and evil (which is apparently precisely what happened).

We are cursed by God, put out of paradise and our flesh becomes mortal at God's hand, and we die. Most don't understand the gravity of the sin.

-and that..IIRC..is why we die, not because some dragon told some female a truth that was inconvenient to the plan of a god...but because that god decided to handle the scuttling of it's plans by laying down an old school curse -que the wands and top hats and rabbits-...which to me...goes a long way towards establishing what can only be called a serious pattern of handling things poorly from the word go. Again I'm reminded that I;m at no loss for reasons that we find ourselves in such a convoluted scenario in the present.

This is important, because we deny our Creator in that act of sin. And want to take the very power that created us! We had a choice. And we still do!

Well I'm not interested in any creators power-I often find myself not wanting to be the boss at the business I own and operate. I miss putting cogs in their place more often than I long for the whip of the boss-man.

God wanted His creation to Love. Jesus said that we were "given to Him by the Father." Jesus bridged the gap between us and the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Love between them, and us.

Okay then, we finally have something to point at and say "aha, god accomplished what he set out to do" I love, and I am myself loved by others. The skies grow bright. But only for a moment...as the clouds gather around this love the very moment I am informed that I have been given to another - without my being consulted- as though I were a bunch of flowers...rather than a living, breathing, thinking, feeling human being - all of these things I was ostensibly created to be...by the very creature that has just married me away to a man I have never met.....and I don't even swing that way Ron....

If a divide exists, whose choice is this in actuality. You don;t seem to be painting a narrative of our having been in the driving seat in any of this here Ron? Nevertheless, if this gap existed...and if this character were the bridge...I still haven't been given any reason to cross it.

There was no need for us. But Love for us. Because Love is multiplied in His creation! Your thoughts?

My thoughts...well, I think that I'm here on my side of the river looking over the bridge at the other shore and what do I see? I see people such as yourself shouting amen as blood rains down upon their manic faces. "Love love love", is the refrain from this ghoulish chorus and I cannot even conceive of something that might compel me to put my foot on that bridge..let alone walk across it.