(July 29, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote:
Tonus Wrote:My point was that they did not know good from evil;
Right. Was there a need for them to?
Tonus Wrote:they were not expected to obey for any other reason than that they had been ordered to obey.
Disagree, they were not ordered, they were given a commandment and were given the consequences for a wrong action. If there is consequences for an action there is choice.
Tonus Wrote:When did Eve find the fruit of the tree to be desirable? When the serpent told her that she would suffer no ill consequences from eating it.
Right, but the serpent lied to her. She knew what God had told her.
Tonus Wrote:She was not conditioned to understand why a course of action was right or wrong, so when the serpent implied that she could eat the fruit without worry she could not have seen it as an unwise course of action.
Disagree, she understood eating the fruit was wrong, she explained to the serpent the consequences God had laid out, she understood it was wrong. Remember God walked with them in the Garden, when God walks with someone they are growing in a relationship with Him ie. Enoch, God was teaching them. When you look at scripture when God was with someone ie. Moses He was teaching.
Tonus Wrote:They did not realize they had messed up until after their eyes were opened to the understanding of right and wrong, which apparently was only possible if they ate from the fruit.
You are probably right since we take the effect of eating the fruit as immediate. I disagree with they did not know what was right or wrong, they understood the consequence of disobeying. Little children know right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.
Tonus Wrote:So they were designed to be obedient automatons unless they ate from the fruit, which would automatically do two things: first, it would allow them to understand right from wrong. Second, it would condemn them to death. Nasty, nasty fellow, that Yahweh.
No, totally disagree, the were created to be beings of free will, just as the angels were. Eating the fruit from the tree, they came to know what was evil, murder, stealing, disobedience and they now realized what sin was and how it hurt God, that's why they were hiding from God, as if they could. They knew the consequences of disobedience, and they learned what good and evil were, they already understood right from wrong, eating the fruit opened their eyes to the evil of disobedience.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.