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All the problems with Christianity
#56
RE: All the problems with Christianity
(November 12, 2013 at 5:52 pm)ronedee Wrote: "Life" isn't a gift?
Do you think of your 4 year old as a gift? Or just someone you're raising?
I think this question is more complex than you are recognizing.
Since you asked it in two parts, I will answer it starting with the first. This is indeed two separate questions. Is life a gift?

This can be considered in two different ways:
1) Is it better to live than to have never lived.
2) Is it better to continue to live, rather than die.

If you are asking me, a living person, if I would rather have continued on not existing as I once did (or didn’t) before I was born, I would say no. I cannot remember what that was like, and all I’ve ever known is what it is to live. So, certainly I would prefer the only thing I know as I have no sample for any alternative.
If I never existed, I would have of course not experienced any of the hardships or pain that life brings about with it. But, I would also not have any knowledge or experience of all that is good about life. So in that since, it is bittersweet. The question becomes more difficult for someone in your position, however, when we add another side to this question.

If I am brought into existence my a conscious agent. My journey and exposure to both pain and pleasure are initiated by the agent’s decision to initiate my existence. If this agent is the Christian God, then the end of my existence too has an additional outcome. If there is a possibility that the existence and consciousness that was initiated by God could result in my consciousness being tortured for eternity, and if this outcome and experience of pain can be met by simply operating in the manner in which God created me, then I would say yes, it would be better not to live. Not only that, but if such a scenario were true, it paints a very sadistic picture of God indeed. Or, is this not something you are able to see?

Considering my son as a “gift” says nothing about the responsibility I accepted as a man to be his father. It says nothing about the decisions I’ve had to make in his best interest. It says nothing about my patience, and my acceptance. My 4 year old son, as he is now, is not a gift, he was not given to me like this, but more accurately he is the product of what I’ve put into him, in every sense- genetically, physically, mentally. As his father, however he turns out will in many ways be a reflection of me, because he is very much a product of me. A gift is something that sounds nice to say, it has a poetic softness to it, but it doesn’t at all capture what it means to parent a child that you love. My son is so much more than a gift, because my experience as his father, and our relationship is not something that was simply given to me, it was worked for.
That’s what always bothers me about the comparison of my son to people being God’s children. It’s not at all the same, and it discredits the work and direct influence I put into my son to earn his love and respect. I don’t expect him to love me, honestly, that is not my responsibility to see to it that he does. My responsibility is to mold him into a man as best I can, and I do it by being directly involved in his life. There is no version of this story that requires him to do anything for me to receive my love and guidance, and there is no version of this story when he invoke horrifying consequences for him not abiding by my “plan”. Human parents and divine creators are simply not analogous.


(November 12, 2013 at 2:00 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: I think you need to finish that thought. Lines like this are followed with a disclaimer (Need him, obey him, trust him, love him...or else..)
This is what makes God seem like a petty egotistic maniac...


(November 12, 2013 at 5:52 pm)ronedee Wrote: Did God reveal His raunchy nature to you personally?
What first hand knowledge (from God) and evidence do you have to support your claims? You are talking for Him correct?

Or is it man's version of God you are talking about?
No, God hasn’t revealed anything to me, there is no God that I know anything about. I know nothing of God and very little of you, so I would not pretend to be able to speak for either. There is no single version of man’s God, but every version I’ve heard comes from a man. If your God does not have a hell, or in some way is incompatible to the way I’ve depicted it, then by all means, offer clarification of your position if you think it may reconcile the things I find incompatible with an allegedly loving God. Your God does not have a hell, or a devil involved in his doctrine I take it?
Reply



Messages In This Thread
All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 11, 2013 at 11:06 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Captain Colostomy - November 11, 2013 at 11:12 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 11, 2013 at 11:21 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 11, 2013 at 11:43 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Captain Colostomy - November 11, 2013 at 11:52 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bipolar Bob - November 15, 2013 at 7:17 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by FallentoReason - November 11, 2013 at 11:39 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 11, 2013 at 11:47 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by justin - November 12, 2013 at 8:30 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 11, 2013 at 11:49 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Owlix - November 11, 2013 at 11:51 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by FallentoReason - November 12, 2013 at 12:00 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 12, 2013 at 12:43 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 12, 2013 at 1:24 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Cinjin - November 12, 2013 at 1:42 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by FallentoReason - November 12, 2013 at 12:54 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 12, 2013 at 2:03 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 12, 2013 at 2:58 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Simon Moon - November 12, 2013 at 4:13 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 12, 2013 at 6:47 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 12, 2013 at 2:36 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - November 12, 2013 at 12:01 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 12, 2013 at 12:34 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - November 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 12, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - November 13, 2013 at 9:51 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 12, 2013 at 5:52 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 12, 2013 at 6:57 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 13, 2013 at 12:18 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 13, 2013 at 12:37 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by The Reality Salesman - November 13, 2013 at 9:35 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 14, 2013 at 4:11 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by KichigaiNeko - November 12, 2013 at 2:58 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by max-greece - November 12, 2013 at 4:04 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 12, 2013 at 4:10 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Ayen - November 12, 2013 at 8:42 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Cinjin - November 12, 2013 at 9:31 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Ben Davis - November 12, 2013 at 9:37 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zazzy - November 12, 2013 at 9:59 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by mattpaul42 - November 13, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 13, 2013 at 7:47 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - November 14, 2013 at 9:23 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Anomalocaris - November 12, 2013 at 11:26 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by TheBeardedDude - November 12, 2013 at 11:35 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Mister Agenda - November 12, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 12, 2013 at 2:31 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 12, 2013 at 3:55 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Doubting Thomas - November 12, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Crossless1 - November 12, 2013 at 4:41 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 12, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Anomalocaris - November 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Cinjin - November 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 12, 2013 at 5:32 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 12, 2013 at 7:21 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 12, 2013 at 8:14 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by 6ft Atheist - November 13, 2013 at 3:08 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by max-greece - November 13, 2013 at 3:44 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 13, 2013 at 7:32 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 13, 2013 at 11:13 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 14, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 14, 2013 at 12:29 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zazzy - November 14, 2013 at 12:43 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chas - November 14, 2013 at 12:48 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Mister Agenda - November 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 14, 2013 at 8:22 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 13, 2013 at 12:39 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Anomalocaris - November 13, 2013 at 12:48 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 14, 2013 at 12:25 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 14, 2013 at 6:15 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 14, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by max-greece - November 14, 2013 at 7:24 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by CapnAwesome - November 14, 2013 at 7:29 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 14, 2013 at 2:35 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 15, 2013 at 6:33 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 15, 2013 at 6:01 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 15, 2013 at 6:59 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by ronedee - November 16, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 16, 2013 at 4:55 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 16, 2013 at 7:02 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lion IRC - November 15, 2013 at 8:02 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bob Kelso - November 15, 2013 at 8:23 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - November 15, 2013 at 9:30 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by paulpablo - November 15, 2013 at 8:13 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by downbeatplumb - November 16, 2013 at 6:32 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by mattpaul42 - November 16, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by downbeatplumb - November 17, 2013 at 5:26 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 16, 2013 at 12:28 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 17, 2013 at 5:05 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zazzy - November 17, 2013 at 10:10 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Jacob(smooth) - November 17, 2013 at 1:13 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 17, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 17, 2013 at 9:44 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 19, 2013 at 5:00 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 19, 2013 at 10:42 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 18, 2013 at 1:20 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 19, 2013 at 5:46 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zazzy - November 19, 2013 at 9:43 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - November 20, 2013 at 10:04 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Minimalist - November 20, 2013 at 12:14 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 20, 2013 at 9:27 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 20, 2013 at 11:24 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 24, 2013 at 3:25 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by freedomfromforum - November 24, 2013 at 1:15 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 25, 2013 at 12:04 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Firstruth - November 22, 2013 at 6:27 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 22, 2013 at 6:33 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by freedomfromforum - November 22, 2013 at 1:44 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Firstruth - November 23, 2013 at 5:02 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zen Badger - November 23, 2013 at 5:38 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 23, 2013 at 7:46 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by freedomfromforum - November 23, 2013 at 12:57 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Firstruth - November 22, 2013 at 6:39 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Ben Davis - November 22, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Wolf - November 22, 2013 at 8:22 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Firstruth - November 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 22, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 23, 2013 at 1:00 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 23, 2013 at 11:13 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 23, 2013 at 12:44 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Lemonvariable72 - November 23, 2013 at 12:56 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 23, 2013 at 1:22 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Captain Colostomy - November 24, 2013 at 9:33 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Captain Colostomy - November 24, 2013 at 10:33 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Zazzy - November 24, 2013 at 12:16 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by downbeatplumb - November 24, 2013 at 1:14 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 24, 2013 at 12:38 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 24, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by downbeatplumb - November 24, 2013 at 1:24 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 24, 2013 at 1:30 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 24, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by downbeatplumb - November 24, 2013 at 1:45 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Whateverist - November 24, 2013 at 1:46 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Godlesspanther - November 24, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Silver - November 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 24, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Godlesspanther - November 24, 2013 at 5:02 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 24, 2013 at 5:12 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - November 26, 2013 at 4:44 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 26, 2013 at 10:50 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by MindForgedManacle - November 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Chad32 - November 26, 2013 at 5:55 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - November 26, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Avodaiah - December 19, 2013 at 5:36 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - December 19, 2013 at 5:43 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Esquilax - December 19, 2013 at 9:17 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Tonus - December 19, 2013 at 10:13 am
RE: All the problems with Christianity - by Bad Writer - December 19, 2013 at 8:31 am

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