All the problems with Christianity

[ronedee]

Translation: “You completely trust your confidence in knowing God exists”
My question to the provided definition: While you may trust it, how do you know it’s true?
Religion is the only place that people use the word faith to describe how they know something exists. And, it just so happens the thing they claim exists, cannot be verified by any measurable or observable means whatsoever.
I will acknowledge that you have faith in God in the sense that I have faith in my fiancée. Let’s put that use of the word faith to rest right now.
What I’m trying to get you to justify is what you mean when you use “faith” as an epistemology or (how you come to know something).
You have faith that God exists, or (You completely trust your confidence that makes you believe God exists) How do you know that it’s true?
Would you say you have faith that the sun exists?
Do you answer no, only because the sun can be verified by others that have not yet seen it, and so faith shouldn’t be used to describe the epistemological process that leads one to believe that the sun exists?

I don't like that word "epistemological". Because even in the light of so much we know, anyone could make an argument to the contrary, for anything! Its just a fancy word for where's your verifiable evidence.

Actually, I could use it for you! How do you know your own limits of knowledge? (more on that later!)

But, I do have experiences in my life that [I know] can only be attributed to God. So much so, that non-religious friends have asked for prayers. And some have converted to God because of these events.

No. But if I had faith that I could fly before I leapt of a building, I would have been operating under a delusion as I hit the ground. Whatever the epistemological process was that gave me confidence to believe I could fly, it was not reliable.

Had you asked me how I knew that I could fly, there’s no logical reason I could offer, but to me, faith would have been perfectly reasonable. As you said, I completely trusted and had confidence that I could fly. That doesn’t make it true. That’s what a delusion is. Believing something is true, with such confidence and sureness, as described by your use of the word faith, without a shred of logical justification, and being completely unaware of it being false. In this context, “Faith” is pretending to know something that you simply do not.

"Pretending" is [not] to have Faith! I can't pretend, because there is nothing to pretend about!

In your mind, I may be pretending....But I have my own experiences that you say I correlate with my faith. That is emphatically not true!

I will share some of my revelations with you, because you have been openminded with me, and civil. I don't expect sarcasm, or belittling from you.

First of all, I was born believing in God. I've had an experience very early (about 4-5 y/o) that is unexplained. I only recently understood the meaning. So, that is something that has always kept me in dialog with God. And it's probably another reason I have so much faith.

I got away from God for about 10 years, in my late teens to my late 20's. I, like any other young man only cared for: sports, cars, women, money etc. Something very personal and spiritual brought me back to God: It was major question being answered from Him about Jesus. Since I came back, I have slowly evolved spiritually. It's been a hard road to where I am now. There was a lot of "accumulation" blocking the path. Mostly material. I had to make some major decisions in my life. But the more I questioned God, the more answers I got. And mostly from the Holy Spirit, through trial and error in communication. Meaning several ways. The Holy Spirit has several methods that you may call "correlations". But when these "correlations" happen continually they are beyond that term!

As part of my spiritual evolution, I was fortunate to meet my wife, who is my polar opposite, and also close to God! I can't tell you how much it has helped me to see things differently. If you can live with an opposite personality... its the best thing for your humility, and seeing yourself through a critical eye! It works for some...but leave your ego in a closet.

After I made those "major decisions", things got better for 3 or 4 years. But, then I (bear w/ me now) made other decision in my life, NOT praying about it, or consulting, or listening to God. I felt, I knew what God wanted for me, even though in my heart I felt it was [me] that wanted the direction I took. Not God.

I don't expect you to understand most of the above...perhaps none of it. But, my point is that I know in my heart that I have to lead with God, and through Jesus' litmus test in life. So far, everything has worked for me in this way. And when I went against this "formula", I paid a price.

Did you teach your kids about other religions? Did you teach them about what Muhammad says in the Quran about Jesus? Did you tell your kids that Muhammad says if you follow Jesus you will be damned as Muhammad claims he was the one true prophet, not Jesus?

I will teach my son the facts. That’s what it says in the Quran, and I will tell him what Jesus of The Bible says about his claim to being the exclusive path to salvation.

I’m not going to point out that they are incompatible. I’m not going to point out that one of them is seriously mistaken since they both can’t be right. I’m not going to point out that it’s more likely that when you look at all the religions man has conjured over the span of history that it’s incredibly likely that they are both false.

I’m just going to expose him to truths, and let him draw his own conclusions. I’ll let him see the parts of The Bible that were kept from me. Parts that endorse killing your kids if they talk back, and stoning your wife. I’ll let him examine those texts in open contrast with the parts that talk about how pure God is. I will let him work it out on his own. I would be quite surprised if anybody would pick a specific one if they actually had an informed decision. Indoctrinating childre is not letting them choose. It's keeping them ignorant for selfish reasons.

Did you do that for your kids? When they came to you with questions, or did you give them answers that you thought were true because you read them in a really old book? Conversely, did you urge them to read about all the religions of the world and see which one sounded right to them?
Did you invite them to challenge the claims of Christianity and see if it stood up under scrutiny? Did you foster in them the ability to recognize a good idea from a bad one? Something likely Vs. Highly unlikely?
Were your children informed about the world, or did you confine them to the doctrine of your choosing?

I will accept any answer you give me as true. I will not pretend to know what you did with your children. That's for you to know, and none of my business.

As I said, I think you love your child and will do right by him. Anything you took negatively was food for thought.

I teach my children historically about other religions. But Jesus is the standard of our religion...and He gets the majority of the time.

You failed to mention my (self-proclaimed) atheist kids. That was their decision. As well as the kids who came back to the Lord!

If your kids never found God, they could never have peace?

Would you rather your kids be good, or would you rather they believe in God? Which is more valuable to you? (Answer honestly without any deepities please, if this is a hard question to answer, ask yourself why.)

That's an interesting question. But, God is good. So, if they are "good", they are doing God's work! If they say they believe, and are not living according to God? What "good" is that! Obviously we can "say" we are anything! And plenty of Christians are not living according to Christ! What would you be doing here if they did? So, yes "good" over "saying" they believe.

Nope, I don't care what you say. It's not about me, it's about you and what you think. I do find it odd why you aren't more honest. Why don't you just say, “I don’t know if God exists, but I believe in Him because it makes me feel good.” Wouldn’t that me a more honest approach? Look at the verbal acrobatics you've had to perform to articulate your thoughts.

What am I "not honest" about? I do know that God exists. You don't know if He exists.

The verbal acrobatics have been for you! Believe me... I hate trying new ways to convince you or anyone for that matter. But, when I see an opportunity to create more doubt in your mind, I'll take it!

I'm not the type of person to run around saying something I don't have complete and utter trust in! aka Faith!

I don't need a shred of evidence He exists...but, as they say YMMV!

You’re right! I don’t know anything about Gods. I’m going off of the one you describe to me.

It would be trivially easy for the all-powerful God of The Bible that created the universe to convince me that He exists.

He could arrange the stars in the night sky to say, “I am God”, and see to it that everyone in the world could read it simulatneously in their own native language. He could regenerate the limb of an amputee patient at a national science conference! If you believe in a God that created the universe, things like this would be trivially easy for him!

The God of the sort that Christians proclaim could do any countless number of things to prove his existence, are you saying God could not do those things? Is God not the perfect powerful creator of the cosmos?

Wrong again. This whole time I have not said that you are wrong as to whether or not A God exists. Saying that A God cannot exist would be an example of me pretending to know things, I cannot, and do not know. (are you noticing the difference yet?)

I don’t pretend to know that I know that God does not exists. That’s absurd. A God may very well exist, but you haven’t given any reason to think that you have any information that makes it plausible.

You don’t think about God, you don’t know whether or not He actually exists, nor can you be sure, it gives you comfort, so you continue it because it hasn’t caused any problems for you personally.

Why not say this? This is a way more honest depiction of your “faith”. The only liberty I took was the part where I translated your inability to justify your belief and incorporated it into this sentence in the form of intellectual honesty by saying “You don’t know…” The rest is spot on.

Why must God fit man's mold of what He should be? If we are indeed "created in the image of God".... Our lives could be a microcosm of what He is...... maybe?

We have a lot of power as humans! We have the power of life and death! Recently science has "said" to have found the path to immortality! There's not much we can't...or in the future be able to do!

So, if we apply our lives to God's, how is He much different?

Case-in-point: our kids. (as God would) We get them started in life, and they run off on their own. They sometimes come back for help, or not. Some love us, some not. They sometimes tell good stories about us, sometimes bad. And, most of their lives are ruled by their own decisions, not ours! We try to instill the best in them, but that is no guarantee they will do things right!

Do you see what I'm driving at here? What is expected of us (as parents) after they have gone off on their own? We still love them. But we DON'T interfere. And if they need something? They ask.... How are we expected to know they need something...unless....they ask? Or, should we meddle in every part of their lives...until they hate us for it?

I like your fire, but don’t misrepresent my words. I’ve said that your description of faith was indistinguishable from a delusion. I’ve asked you to tell me how you know you are not delusional. You did not answer. I never once called you delusional.

Given that I’ve never called you delusional, I will pretend you are asking me how I can know that I’m not delusional. I was wondering how long it would take you to ask this question. In our other thread, I invited you to ask it at the beginning of our questions.

There is a difference between being delusional, and recognizing that one has misconstrued reality.

The difference comes in the ability to revise one’s beliefs in the face of new information. I am not married to any of my beliefs. I examine them, and challenge them, and discard the ones that are supported by faulty reasoning. I have not said that I would never believe in God, in fact, I even gave some examples of things that would make me change my mind.

The difference between being delusional and misconstruing reality is being willing to revise one’s beliefs. You aren’t willing to do that, are ya? You don’t have anything to support your belief other than the fact that positive events have correlated with your faith, and it makes you feel good to attribute them to a God you think takes a personal interest in your affairs. You believe this can be true for me too, but when pressed to provide good reason for how you know your belief is true, you offer, “faith”. Now, you’ve said that you “hope” that I know, but “faith” is how you know. Do you see how dicey this is getting? Should anything that is unequivocally true be this difficult to convey? It doesn’t strike you as a possibility that what you have been pretending to know things you do not know?

As with other words that sum things up into a tidy scrap pile, they are misleading to the whole picture.

We can leave delusion on the trash heap with epistemological if you'd like!

Don’t be fooled into thinking that this is true at all. I won’t even begin to address the “quasi” part, or your blatant misunderstanding of what it means to be an Atheist. Remember, the God you believe in isn’t the only one on the market. There may very well be a God, I don’t claim to know there isn’t, and neither would Einstein.
Einstein was intellectually honest . He acknowledged the limitations of his capacity to know, and recognized his ignorance with regards to the vastness of the seemingly infinite universe. It would have been wildly arrogant and beyond his faculties of knowledge to profess to know, for certain, that a God definitely doesn’t exist. You’ll be hard up to find an Atheist on this site that would say anything different.
The arrogant one is you:
You claim to there IS a God with 100% certainty. Not only that, you claim to have a personal relationship with this God, but you can’t justify it. You think this God loves you, and you pity your own children should they not eventually be convinced of the same. It gives you comfort to perpetuate an idea of spending an eternity of servitude with this personal creator of the cosmos. You do this without a shred of consideration as to whether or not it’s actually true, and then out of the other side of your mouth, you say something intended to imply arrogance for those that say they don’t know.
That shoe jumped on the other foot pretty fast.

The funny part is, if you understood Einstein’s position, you’d realize this is a concession.

(There may be a God, but there’s certainly no reason to think it’s the Christian one presented in The Bible)

You sorta made my argument in your last sentence!

How do you know? You just discredited my whole life (again), as well as my unfortunate, pitiful children in the preceeding paragraph. And all because God hasn't revealed Himself to you!

Einstien theroized 12 dimensional planes. We are considered to be on the 3rd, I think? So lets consider his theory for a moment. What are the other 9? How does he know. Why do we even consider his pov?

Sure he may be right about E=mc2....but, wtf does he know about anything we can't see? There's NO EVIDENCE!

So, do you call him wrong? Why is his lack of evidence ok, and mine not ok? And even in the light that you don't have a clue of repeating ANY theory he's made reality!

Here's my point (again): You have not had the experiences that I have had. How can you refute them? And God?